Dr. Christina M. Kishimoto is the founder of Voice4Equity LLC and a Clinical Professor at the Rossier School of Education at the University of Southern California. A native of the South Bronx in New York City, she is a bold advocate for social justice and a national leader on education policy and equity matters.
Dr. Michael Conner
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. Welcome to another episode of Voices for Excellence. I am your host, Dr. Michael Conner, CEO and Founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group and Proud host of VFE. And today, I am a fan because I have known Dr. Christina Kishimoto’s work from when I was a Chief Academic Officer and before. So just to give you a little context of how I knew about Dr. Christina Kishimoto is we both worked under the same superintendent, learned from this brilliant mind, Dr. Steven Anamowski. And when I was chief academic officer, he would always say, Michael, you have to reference Christina’s work with the school redesign. I remember when I was in the midst of a middle school redesign project, very comprehensive. That was my first big project, Dr. Kishimoto. And I said, can you give me some research article, whether it be white papers? So he gave me all of the supporting documents and he’s like reference Christina’s work when she was in Hartford. That would be a good guidepost for you. Dr. Kishimoto, I might tell you, trying to find your work outside of just what Dr. A’s recommendation was hard, but I was able to see what you’ve done when you were an assistant superintendent for school Design and Redesign and Hartford Public Schools. You became the superintendent of Hartford Public Schools, then went on to become the superintendent of Gilbert Public Schools, in Gilbert, Arizona, and then just most recently served as a state superintendent of Hawaii. Now, that is a very, very jealous job. I’m not going to lie to you. Aloha. I would love saying that every day. And now you are the CEO and Founder for Voice for Equity. So that is Dr. Christina Kishimoto. It is great to have you on Voices for Excellence. Good to see you hermana.
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
Michael, it’s great to be here. I just want to know who allowed both of us to have a CEO title behind our names. But this is going to be great. I’m so excited by having a conversation with you today.
Dr. Michael Conner
This is going to be fun. And listen, you have two of the most steadfast equity warriors out there. Dr. Kishimoto is on fire. What she’s been doing across the country, we will get into that shortly. But just to start out is a fun question. Dr. Kishimoto, your work in the superintendent role has been extensive serving in the same capacity of what I just highlighted moments ago and you recently, like I said, were the state superintendent of Hawaii. But now as the Founder and CEO for Voice for Equity, what song would leaders describe Dr. Christina Kishimoto as a national leader and thought partner in education? Moreover, what song would education stakeholders describe you as to other leaders? Let’s say in different small subculture coalitions or coalitions around equity? How would they describe you in the education sector?
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
I don’t know how seriously to take this question, especially because I just I love music and songs. It’s just how I kind of decompress with such work. But hopefully you’ll remember this one, Space Jam, 1990s, I think it was Michael Jordan and Bugs Bunny. Ready to rumble. I don’t think that’s really a song as much as it’s a call to action. So, I walk into board meetings, I walk into the legislature, I walk into any tough situation. I feel like that that playlist is just playing behind me. Only I can hear it. But I think that describes also, in many ways, this work makes you feel like you have a set of cartoon characters around you or you yourself are a cartoon character. What that tells you is I don’t take myself too seriously. The work is serious and you can’t take yourself too seriously, you got to kind of balance. How others might describe me or especially those who have worked with me, they probably would use Charles Barkley’s Crazy when I walk into the room. That’s probably what’s playing in their head when they see me. And part of that is you got to be a little crazy to do this work and to put yourself out there. And that’s just a kind of a light way to say something a little more serious about what this work is like in public education.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely. And what I love about your response, Dr. Kishimoto, is a call to action. And I think now more than ever, there is this profound wall of action where we have to be crazy. And I want to add that we have to be crazy and unapologetic because Generation Alpha and Generation Z needs a new education model, needs a new paradigm shift. Specifically when we talk about historically excluded student groups, our EL students, black students, brown students, gender equity in the context of what it looks like in the pre-K through 12th sector, all the way up to the industry jobs of CEOs, where you are ensuring that yes, we are seeing more women at the seat. Dr. Kishimoto, thank you for that because I keep hearing this data is around 4%. 4% of our leaders are black and brown women. And we’re seeing a historical turnover where black and brown women are being replaced by white men, status quo and your voice as well as your organization’s continuation to dismantle those historical inequities that we see, whether it be in the education ecosystem or now in leadership roles within the education entity. But yes, I agree with you. You got to be crazy to take this job. I’m not going to lie to you. You got to be a little on the crazy side because, I like to say this, the body shots that we are going to take or that we have taken, Dr. Baron Davis said this. He said that he’s not going to respect you until you got some kinks in your armor, which I absolutely love. But thank you for that. But going on to the next question. You’ve been… you had a successful tenure as superintendent. Now you started your organization called Voice for Equity. There are a myriad of leadership institutes, leadership support programs and advocacy work that you’re doing through Voice for Equity. But for my listeners who are not familiar with the work of Voice for Equity, what is the mission of your organization and how would my listeners be able to get involved if they wanted to join one of your successful and many programs that you have?
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
I love lots of participation. Working with women nationally and allies nationally. It’s Voice for Equity without the s so Voice, and then a number four, and equity .COM. And that’s the way to find my website and to see what what we’re up to these days. Here’s what’s unique about this design. And I’m really, this was really important for me. This is about designing a way for women to network nationally in a way that is of their design. So I’m constantly asking women, what do you need? How can I help? And they should be part of multiple networks. This whole idea that there’s one organization, one place to go for everything is unrealized. I think there’s so much talent and breath out there, so many opportunities. And so the idea is also to make sure that women are networked with others who are doing great work. But the core mission of Voice for Equity is to increase the number of women who are in the superintendency and women of color in the superintendency. And are in policy related roles. Why? Because policy is about the structure, the construct within which we make decisions, and women have to be leading that decision making structure. Otherwise, women are subject to others constantly telling us how things will happen, how decisions will be made, how all families will be impacted, how our children will be educated. And so this is really about having an organization focused on policy empowerment for women.
Dr. Michael Conner
Beautiful. And I can tell you this, the construct, the frames of policies, there are embedded in… there’s systemic and embedded racism that exist in it. And there’s also systemic and embedded inequities in the context of propelling the male voice and marginalize and minimize in the voice of the collection of women, of which I am happy that you’re moving towards that and developing and deepening and scaling that coalition intentionally because, as a steadfast warrior for excellence and equity, this is one of the major issues that I want to be able to provide my support to. I have a lot of support from the from the African American male lens. So that now it’s just not linear to that, where we have to be able to help our brothers and sisters, also sisters that are really trying to leverage their voice in policy, empowering them to be the voices of our teaching and learning organizations and beyond the education ecosystem as well. So I’m glad for that voice. And let me get this right because I’m so used to saying Voices for Excellence. I’ve just been adding S’s everywhere. That’s is…
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
Drop the S.
Dr. Michael Conner
No reason for it Christina But yes. Voice for, the number 4, equity if you want to get involved and again, when we talk about policy, and this is kind of like a sub variant because you really resonated with me because I would. Now what does that look like from an advocacy standpoint? Because when I see different superintendents, women of color in leadership across the country, I’m just enamored by the depth and breadth of the intellect, the scope of the work that they’re doing. How do we now start mobilizing this from a localized standpoint that penetrates up to the SCA and the Eliot or I should say, the SCA and federal levels as well, because it’s kind of now how do we create that level of coherence or integrate it, our interdependent coherence, where now this strength of numbers is going to be able to really expand and lament the voice, whether it be from a policy standpoint or even in the seat. How do we do that, Dr. Kishimoto, strategically?
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
So, Michael, it’s a great question. One one of the things that we have to keep in mind and remind ourselves and shout from the rooftop, absolutely Over 54% of our students in public education are students of color today. So the demographics have changed. Their families are families of color. And so if we unite and collaborate and create a collective voice between our families of color, our leaders of color and women in policy, we have the majority of the population. And so it’s the few voices that are the ones that are calling for things that don’t make sense. Things like book banning, things like SEL is separatists and is CRT related. Things that don’t make sense that are being said by people that quite frankly don’t read because if they read, they would understand what SEL is and what CRT is and they would understand that CRT is a construct for interrogating racism and racist practices. And it’s not the end all be all. So when you read and when you understand that book banning has over a 100 year history and it was white women who fought back up against book banning, you would understand we’ve been here, we’ve done this. But what we haven’t done is we haven’t unified our collective to say actually with a majority now and we’re going to demand changes and no, you’re not going to decide how my baby’s going to be educated and you’re not going to decide how women power. And this is really about, creating a different way of working and unifying with one another to say, look, we want a quality of life in the United States that really centers on equity and diversity in our communities and our multiple languages and all the beauty that we are here in the United States. What’s happening now is a real distraction to what most people believe by a few who have way too much power right now. And we’re not going to disempower them and go in a different direction unless we start unifying. That way we don’t say these separate affinity groups are going to lead separately, but rather we’re going to be a collective because we’re actually the majority in this country. And we’ve got to we’ve got to lead in a different way than the history of racism and isolation and separatism and the history of non inclusivity, that’s what then we have to say that it’s not the past. That’s not what we’re going to allow anymore. And I think women in leadership or women in leadership have an opportunity to lead with a different voice today. If you look at just the history of Congress in the United States, 94, 95% of laws in this country historically, because of the history of Congress being led by white men, primarily means that our statutes and our laws are primarily made by white men. We know that there’s strength in diversity. It’s all of us being at the table together where we can push each other’s thinking. And that goes for the design of our education system as well.
Dr. Michael Conner
I apologize for….
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
You’re getting me started, Michael, with this button.
Dr. Michael Conner
Please, I’m… you see my hand going a mile a minute. Every time I hear you talk, I learn. So this is more… yes, it’s for my audience, but I’m learning it as well because you brought up some critical points – lead with a different voice and the strength in diversity and the constructs and the frames of our policies are absolutely correct. Design implemented and executed by pretty much white men, right? I mean, this is what we see from a policy standpoint, legislative standpoint, legislators as well. We’re starting to see more of a change, which is great. You know, we’re starting to see the outlier voice that is the disruption which is going to be continuous, which needs to be continuous. And I know you are a part of the University of Southern California, but I have to drop my man from UCLA. He wrote the foreword to my book, Dr. Tyrone Howard. And when he talked, he said on one of my last episodes, he said, find me a school in the United States that is teaching critical race theory. He said that, find me a… he’s like, send me a letter, send me the lesson plan. Send me to that school. Because he said, I can counter that is not being taught. Now, even before critical race theory became an actual part of the actual vernacular in the wrong reasons of education, we got to remember Tyrone, in one of his first books, talked about, there was this triangulation of critical… it was critical race theory, critical wellness and critical pedagogy. I believe it was, I’m sorry, critical race theory, critical wellness, and I forgot the third. My apologies, Dr. Howard. But the way he described critical race theory is a complete outlier or the antithesis of what the current interpretation is of public education right now. So again, I thank you for bringing that up, Dr. Kishimoto, because unification was a major theme that I got from there. Unify in numbers, and you’re doing that and I truly, truly appreciate it. But I want to talk about the superintendent role, because now this is where I want us to be bold and unapologetic when it comes to this question. Because we learned from a common superintendent that we admire, as I stated from at the outset, Dr. Steven Adamowski. I remember right before I took my first superintendent role, Dr. A, I sat in his office and he said, Mike, expect issues. And he was really raw and uncut. And this was a conversation that only Dr. A and I remember and he said, they only can attack two things. They’re either going to attack the work or they’re going to attack the person. And usually… I know how you are, Michael, he always says, Michael, I know how you are. He was like, they’re not going to attack the work. They’re going to attack the person. So now the character assassination, i.e., all of the above. But what advice would you give superintendents on how to protect yourself against these personal and vicious attacks and strategies about creating coalitions at the local, state and national level, if you are a Superintendent about the work?
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
Yes, I think one of the things to keep in mind is that today there are things happening that are like hitting below the belt into boxing. So there are things happening that are really destabilizing the norms about structure from the perspective of kind of the rules of engagement. The rules for engagement, the way in which we should be talking to one another, the way we should be bringing issues to the table. We know that people are being let go left and right in ways that we haven’t seen before at the district level, at the state level. And it does destabilize you. It does make you question like how bold am I willing to be. If I don’t have a job, I can’t have impact. If I don’t have a job, I can’t feed my family. And so depending on where you are in that continuum of your career, you do have to be a little measured in figuring out how to have impact and how to stay on the job. At the same time, we know that we didn’t fight for civil rights by being overly measured either, but we did hear from civil rights leaders who talked about you’ve got to be willing to listen as much as you speak. So that hasn’t changed. You have to be willing to be bold. And one of the things I always say is you have to lead with Teflon shoulders. There are things that are so much bigger than us, the individual, even when we’re being attacked very personally. And that’s a hard skill to have, to say this is about the bigger issue, about who has power, who has rights, who has voice, who has control, who has economic prosperity. All of that is intertwined. That is what causes the conflicts, that causes others to attack us personally as a leader. And it’s really not about us. It’s a bigger issue. But I will say that for both leaders today, it is about trying to find that balance and still also be realistic that you cannot be a social justice leader, you cannot be a civil rights leader. You cannot represent all students the way we like to say very casually, but without really understanding what that means. You can’t do that without some amount of risk. And and that’s a personal decision. So I certainly don’t tell people go take a risk that they don’t make a personal decision on. I have to make those decisions along the way. And you also have to be savvy about how you do that. You have to be just as savvy as the person who’s been kind of, say bluntly, a smart ass against you about, you know, how they’re going about…. You might have to bleep that. Right? Okay.
Dr. Michael Conner
Listen, raw and uncut on voices for excellence. You go right ahead, Dr. Kishimoto.
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
But you have to… You have to be just as savvy about it. And you have to play the game and you have to know how to play the game better to outwit sometimes. That is an important part of leadership. That’s not the only part, is that if you get caught up too much in that you lose your way. But you also have to know how to play that game to stay in the game. And the fact is that you have to be ready to have the policy discourse. I said earlier, you also have to be well read. You need to know your stuff. And a lot of times you’re going to be arguing with someone who doesn’t know their stuff. And that will be a point of discomfort and contention. One final thing I will mention, you have to be comfortable with being uncovered all the time. You can’t lead boldly. You can’t lead for social justice if you’re not willing to be uncomfortable most of the time. And once you embrace that and you do develop a little bit of that Teflon shoulder where you let things slide off of you and you say, okay, after I calmed down internally, I’m going to remember this is not about me. This is about having fairness in society, having happiness for kids, treating families and community with nothing but absolute respect and remembering that my way and my thoughts are not the only way. I’ve got to listen. It’s a combination of those skills. Those are hard. They sound easier than they are. And most of the time when people put a mirror up to you, you realize where you kind of slipped up and you have to be willing to have that mirror in front of you and say, okay, how do I regroup? How do I think differently about this? How do I… I’m going say one more thing even though Isaid that was the last thing. How do I make that counter argument effectively to say the systems of disempowerment, the systems of racist systems cannot prevail anymore? We have got to bring those down and replace them with more fair and equitable structures to really love on our community in a very different way. And that takes a good counter argument to what we have assumed are norms of society. The norms that as a Latina woman, I come second or third, right after a different community gets to have their voice and maybe they will allow me to have a voice. Why need to question and push back on those norms? The norms that say that a student that immigrates into this country has less rights than someone who has grown up here, remembering that the norms are based on false narratives. Immigrants, we are all immigrants unless we are part of the native nations of the United States. So let’s push back on those false narratives and learn how to make really strong counter arguments to assumptions that we have internalized in our churches, in our communities, and growing up in the United States. Assumptions that we’ve internalized that really disempower us and others.
Dr. Michael Conner
Yeah. Dr. Kishimoto, a lot for my audience that is tuning in again, you always know I like to reference asynchronous learning, always is try to associate, Dr. Kishimoto, to something. But my audience, please, because what Dr. Kishimoto said in her response and the sentiments that we’re embedded within are those micro sentiments that were embedded within her answer. This is just like kind of like a pedagogical strategic approach of using the close reach strategy, which your kids go back, do a close listen. So the answer that Dr. Kishimoto provided, because again, when you talk about and I’m thinking about this kind of like in this parallelization of being measured with impact, but being able to find that balance, and are you willing to take that risk, which is a personal decision? When you hear about risk in the context of understanding your contacts and being measured about it, and it’s a long term game where you want to be able to systemically address and interrogate policy structures and systems that exist. Dr. Kishimoto stated it redesigning or designing a different normalization within the ecosystem. So please, to my listeners, rewind that a couple of times because again, you can align that to your own executive or leadership practices because again, if you’re going to be measured, if you’re going to have this level of risk, you have to be comfortably uncomfortable or comfortable to be uncomfortable. And yes, yes, with those shoulders, what did you say? Right, right, right. Dr. Kishimoto, you got to be like this sometimes they hurt, but you got to go like this. But okay. I would be remiss if I didn’t ask this question because you are a systems czar and I purposely ask this question because I wanted to geek out with you on VFE. Okay. So this is kind of like a personal question where I’m like, all right, I get to learn a little bit, but my listeners, they get to see two individuals geek out around systems change and what that looks like from the context of transforming traditional learning models more of this emergent learning model specifically and the after COVID stage of education. So this is the first typical year since 2018-2019. That’s why, within my book, I really have that focus on how we can use a conceptual model, essentially Shine’s model on the HELP framework and Clay Christensen’s processes from micro innovation all the way up to this level of, I like to say, discontinuous innovation is kind of all of that disrupted in this 2.0 version of it. I kind of wish that I had that when I was doing the redesign work or the transformational work in Norwalk, even to the level the approach to align it to my strategic operating plan, two plans that we designed three years when I was superintendent in Middletown. But now that we see where we’re at right, and the AC stage of education, we’re still seeing some districts double down on the industrial model of education is batch industrialization, where I’m still seeing traditional monolithic pedagogy and just kind of like decent improvement, incremental improvement of the existing systems that we’re seeing in totality. But we know that there needs to be a change. We’re dealing with all of these really extraneous variables to the education model, i.e. teacher shortages, battling chronic absenteeism at an alarming rate. We’re seeing policy that is still being lamented in the AC stage of education, where you clearly articulated 54% of our students are black and brown. So we see that disjunction right there. But how do we now or what does change management look like underscoring this process that eliminate these these quandaries? Why should say an ethical quandaries where now distribution is not hitting? Or so how do we make that change now in the AC stage of education?
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
Yeah, it’s a great question. Everybody should be thinking about this, right? A question for us to be challenging one another with and being willing to come to the table together and talk about this. Right. Talk through it. One of the things that I certainly would bring to the table is, is the fact that the time to kind of, you know, negotiate with one another and come to kind of agreement about what you give and what I give. And and doing these incremental steps to improvement have never been sufficient right. And sometimes they are necessary, but never sufficient to really change a system. And so if you really want systemic change, you have to be willing to say what is may not be in its entirety, right? If you’re not willing to even start with that premise, then you’re not going to be able to even think from a systemic perspective in as you interrogate the systems that are in place and you say, what hasn’t produced, Let’s just stop doing because it hasn’t produced. Right. And I’m going to give you an example. We have tinkered around the issue of equal supports and learning in this country for over 50 years, and we have had tremendous voice and input and thought leadership around the kind of policy construct that could help better help students to acquire the English language, to be able to be successful in our traditional public education system. But we haven’t said, what if we stop labeling students? What if we stop transitioning them in the way that we have, where we deny them access to upper level courses and courses? They’re interested in until they master English? What if we just take out the premise that you need to know English and master English before you can learn anything? You know, you go and look at Europe and you look at other countries and they don’t use that performance. They’re multilingual, right? So what if we completely took a language acquisition and multilingualism approach and said, we’re going to be a country where you can succeed and advance and contribute to this economy through all of these multiple amazing languages, the way we see in other countries. So that’s just an example of why don’t we let go of the things that we know don’t work and continue to disempower students to be able to go to college and be successful, such as a yellow approach, which I think is very antiquated in our thinking. And all we want to do is rehash the same approach. And we see that over and over again. Right? And think about the fact that in the United States and for our most disenfranchized students, we educate through interventions, right? Their core program is interventions, right? We layer on intervention. And I’m thinking at some point we need to ask ourselves, why do we need so many interventions? Wasn’t that child with you from pre-K or kindergarten? And we’re still providing interventions in high school. Why the system is broken, that that whole system design is broken? If you wish students and if you just look at the kids who enter your system in kindergarten and graduate in 12th grade, if you have them for 12 years and you still can’t ensure and guarantee that they can read and they can do STEM work and they can be engaged in all the latest and greatest of computer science. If you have them all that time, you’ve got to ask yourself what fundamentally is broken with the way we are designing education and because we’re not willing to do that and we focus so much on interventions and layering interventions and we focus so much in tinkering around the edges of reform that we are not willing to replace. And you want to do systems work, you’ve got to be willing to do host skill replacement. =
Dr. Michael Conner
Yeah. Wow. That was amazing. Because of scale or a whole scale systems improvement were right. When I think about that and the tinkering of reform where you’re absolutely right, we only look at certain tenets and not the whole. I like to say, whether it be domain right or the specific process to comprehensively address, I like to say the micro tenets that make up this system, right, this flawed systems design. Now, I want to ask a variant question. I apologized application model because it resonated with me, and I think that it will help a lot of our systems. Leaders really kind of clearly articulate this as they start building this or aligning to, you know, some of the strategies or the app or their individual operating plan is having a systems design that keeps to disenfranchizing in mind over resilient or I should say, just relying on too much of core programs where they are, the ones the intervention programs that become the core for some of our students quality a tier one where the system can be broken, right? If I’m just looking at it purely from the lens of instruction, how do we address that? And when we look at it, just the just addressing the improvement in the quality of Tier one instruction. I want to go back to your statement and question one. 54% of our students right now are public education, are black and brown. You have to add on a piece of how are we going to create culture, responsive classrooms, and culturally responsive or matter metabolizing or culturally responsive leadership within our districts when we can’t even get tier one or the quarter of instruction correctly for our most historically excluded and disenfranchized? How do we address that now, Dr. Kishimoto?
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
Yeah, so I’m not I don’t want my statement to be mistaken. It’s not that I don’t believe in supports and interventions, but I think the first step is to stop talking about Tier one and to say, what does it take to get a child in the scene so excited about learning and learning how to learn and learning about the world and learning about what it’s like to work with others who have different ideas and to construct and to design. If we start out with that, then we’re not talking about Tier one and Tier two and Tier three. If you look at the top schools in this nation, whether public or private, none of them are talking about Tier one, right? We just love to all were labeled everything. And I think what I want to know is my child was going to school and when she comes back, she’s so excited about what she learned and she’s so excited about who she learned with and she’s so excited about her community. And we walk out into whatever we’re going to do, go to church, go to the park, go to the supermarket. And she is so aware of the world around her and the people around her. Right? She is our learner. Absolutely. That’s what we need to create with kids and stop talking about this is what we’re doing in tier one and then this is what we’re doing in tier two. And then you are ultra with tier three, you know, and it’s the labeling that drives me insane. It’s the same thing with with English language support where we talk about a child who speaks two or three languages as needing, you know, ESL supports what that child can teach us something about how many people, adults in this nation don’t speak a second language, don’t can’t comprehend it or can’t even figure it out. You know, in just in just meeting someone. And so all we’re doing is just walking around, afraid of one another. We’re afraid of our immigrants. We’re afraid. And yet that’s how we built that’s the backbone of the United States. And we’ve become our own worst enemies. And how we’ve designed, you know, education, public education, how we’ve designed our economy, how we’ve designed the way we talk and live with one another. So I just think the whole construct of of this opportunity, we have to say we’re going to take we’re going to we’re going to think about our system as a way in which you and I can talk across beliefs, you know, talk across a brain, talk across, you know, church groups and whatever else keeps us apart because we’re so intent on labeling. Right. Someone is Christian, someone is non-Christian, someone is Muslims, someone is not an English speaker. You know, we just love labels. And Tier one is another label we use and it is another construct that we internalize as good and right for having the conversations. And all I can say is no, it’s another construct that’s created another label around.
Dr. Michael Conner
Kids love it. That’s that’s disruptive. That’s that’s being bold and unapologetic, going all out. Listen, Dr. Kishimoto, I’m with you on that because I think, look, I had a meeting and I remember I said, that’s a privilege. I call I call certain segments in education, the privilege, you know, the privilege crowd, the privileged group, you know, stuff that, you know, I, I had to fight for, access for. And it was coming from a poor single mother. Right. Doesn’t know how all the education jargon, all of the education labels. But what she knew was I needed to fight for him to get into those. I like to say privileged programs just, you know, dismantle, deconstruct those programs that have historically held kids back. And let’s just look at him as a learner. I’m going to use that now. I hope you copyright it because I want to use that. Look at every kid. Forget tier one, forget you, forget they’re learners. That the teaching mode. I’m with you 100% when that when you go to when you go down to Washington please let me know because I’m the guy that says a learner. But speaking of that right, we’re seeing negative policy ratification. She started talking about this in various states. It’s starting to become out of control now. You know, there’s political PACs out there just just attacking allies, attacking the governance structure, attacking the policy, work around excellence and equity throughout the country, even to the point we’re seeing just superintendents just walk away from this. Right. You’re that constant voice. I know you alluded to it before and some previous questions, but these inequities are just stark. Right. But, you know, from your lens and experience, you talked it before, but I really want to get down to the level of our communities. Right. And leadership alliances at the local level where you see what we’re seeing and talking about nationally. But, you know, superintendents across different districts and within one state. Right. How do we now start looking at those alliances and continuing to strengthen them, especially with their work with their boards? Right. Because now we have to see boards support up to the superintendent and the superintendent being supportive as we’re pushing those policies through. But, you know, how do we get through this difficult time in the stage of education?
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
It’s there’s multiple levels of work before us. And I’m going to raise one that I hear very little about. But for me, it’s it’s one of those things we need to start talking about, which is some of our major professional associations of which I am a member of and I’ve been a member of need to modernize at this at this post-COVID time period when there is all of this pushback and, you know, policy kind of pulling back off of equitable policies and civil rights related policies, it’s a time for some of these organizations to start speaking up as educators. We built them up by working with them collectively, and now there are very few of them, if any, that I would point to. I don’t know that this one professional association that I would point to in all honesty and say that they are pushing back as opposed to staying quiet. Right. So they’re staying quiet and surviving. The problem is that their employee, their members are not surviving. And we need bolder words and policy pushing some organizations. And I’m not talking about I’m going to send a letter on behalf of the whole association saying this is what I believe. No, it’s you know, we are questioning the fact that women of color seem to be fired from by boards of education in these days when they’re on vacation. Talk about cowardice. You mean you couldn’t do it when she was sitting right there and you have eyes there? There are things happening that are so disrespectful to not just a person, but the whole profession and to our students and to our communities. And we don’t have associations speaking up. They are not speaking up. And I’ve been very disappointed about that. I have no qualms saying that since, you know, that’s what happens when you’re on the other side is a tendency you get to say something a little more boldly. But maybe I’ve always said this, you know, it also means that, you know, we have to remember that to be bold and to be have this collective action approach to this work when we’re not going to be making friends of everyone and some of your friends, you’re going to find out that they’re not willing to go there with you. And and we have to be willing to do that if we’re going to look beyond the one person to the one connection, you know, the other pet peeve I have about organizations is they love to call upon me as a woman of color when it’s convenient for them to use my name and leverage my name for something they’re going to get. But they don’t give me the same respect and letting me have my own voice and speak up when I’m not in agreement with them. And that’s that’s a loss. No professional organization types. I think that’s a shame. I think that’s an that’s a that’s a I see that done to women and leaders of color all the time. You know so Michael Conner, you’re a favorite now because you’re in this position and people are paying attention to you, but all of a sudden you’re not in that position. And so, you know, we don’t need to hear from you anymore.
Dr. Michael Conner
Exactly.
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
We see that all the time. All the time. Right. So let’s let’s just put it on the table. But the other thing is we have to start creating our own tables. Then if we’re not invited to certain tables, we have to we have to engage in collective action around the kind of policy voice we need to have by by creating new tables. And so if the current structures aren’t sufficient, let’s create our own tables and then let’s make sure that that table is diverse. You know, don’t just call your friends. You got to call those who have different points of view, and let’s be willing to talk with one another, which is why, you know, with this organization that I’ve created, it’s about bringing women together, knowing that women are not all the same. Right. We have every diversity, you know, and we represent half the voices of this nation and globally. And and it’s an important place for us to be in terms of leveraging that voice. We have to leverage the voice of one another. It might be true supporters of one another around the kind of work that has to happen on the front.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely. And Dr. Kishimoto, thank you. Because when you bring up moderators a modernization in the context of our large organizations, it kind of brought me back to your organization being the emergent right and the large organizations being the incumbent. However, the emergent is creating that new table to be able to ensure that we’re providing that support. You know, when we look at the transition, because I made the transition, now I get to say some stuff that before I wouldn’t be able to say right and not get in trouble by saying it. Moreover, not being looked at as the outlier of the group because my radicalization in the context of how we need to be able to change for or all learners or leaders now and you’re right, you know, we need bolder words around our policy push and that collective action around the policy stance and policy voice, anything, you know, Christina, that you’re going to need support from, you know, my corporation to be able to bring in the diversity of the lens right, to be able to push this work that you’re doing for voice for equity. Please just reach out. I will always be a huge supporter of your work and and a supporter of the cause. So not only am I going to be a considered an ally because again, I think it’s just absolutely gross right. Borderline borderline malfeasance that we only have 4% nationally black and brown women, that our superintendents, the 17,000 districts, we can do the math. I was I was in many of these major but I love stats on the back end. But you do the math on that and it’s great. Let’s right and that needs to change policy work around the pre-K to 12 level. I mean all of that needs to change in Christina please keep pushing. You got a brother in the work in me. But last question, Dr. Kishimoto. Now I know how you are and I keep out of my calendar due to three words, So I’m just going to say why. Listen, Dr. Kishimoto, you talking about policy changes that include the voices of war? How can I limit you to three words? But I’ll try. So what three words do you want our audience to leave today? Regarded excellence in and equity in education. What three words do you want my audience or my audience need to have in order to achieve leadership success for excellence in equity?
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
Okay, So so I talk about three words all the time. So this is actually not that difficult for me as much as you think. And I have insinuated that I can’t live with myself in three words.
Dr. Michael Conner
There you go, Dr. K.
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
So my three words, collective table and voice. Okay, so the collective is that not my organization? Not your organization, not one organization can represent voice. We have to work on the collective and we have to we have to get beyond ourselves. And I think that’s something that as leaders, as equity minded leaders, we need to get better at. Writing table is the conversation table the policy table Who did you bring with you? Who did you like? Shirley Chisholm. The late Shirley Chisholm told us, You know, who who did you allow to bring a folding chair up to that table and let that person speak for themselves? You are not the one representing the voice of the disenfranchized. You are not the person that’s representing the voice of all people of color, all women. It’s your bringing up. You’re creating a pathway to that table and letting people speak for themselves. So table is the sick one. And then voice is exactly that, which is everyone’s authentic voice and showing up at the table as the authentic selves in whatever accent language, you know, mixed up, you know, type of, you know, multiple languages doesn’t matter. They’re voice is just as valuable as mine. Right. And so remembering and keeping track of ourselves, that one, we should speak up and use our voice. It’s powerful but also allow others to use the power of their voice. So those are my three words.
Dr. Michael Conner
I love it. Collective, table, and voice. I mean, when we think about it, you’re absolutely correct. I concur with your thousand percent that we have to get better with the collective aspect of it. And I think that we continue to, you know, put really a focus on that with how we look at what that collective voice look like because the table and bring your authentic voice, those are pillars. That’s it’s going to drive that collective entity work around the action work that you highlighted. So, Dr. Kishimoto, it has been an absolute honor. Again, if my listeners want to contact you directly to be involved with the policy work that you’re doing nationally or even the support that you can bring to them at the state or local level or even with the advocacy work look like how would they be? How would they be able to get in touch with you?
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
So it’s two ways very easily. Voice for Equity income is the website, and there’s all kinds of ways to connect with me through that. And then my email. Dr. K and Voice for Equity income. No SE I’m the voice. Yes, this voice in the number four equity account. And I also hope that you let me just do a quick plug. I have a national conference and June 19 to the 21st for women superintendents and we have about 20 seats left. Would love to close this registration out. It is going to be a powerhouse of a conference. Go on the website. You can see we have 65 leaders at the federal, state and local level who are leading very boldly who are coming together.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely. And you know what it is A who’s who. I’ve seen the list. I’m like, man, Christina is all fire. She is everybody from across the country, whoever you can think of. Yes, they will be at Dr. Kishimoto, our retreat conference. Thank you, Dr. Kishimoto, for all of the work that you are doing. I am a true fan from when you were a superintendent and the work that you’re doing now at the national level. Hermana, I appreciate you for being on Voices, with the S, for Excellence.
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
We gotta talk about those names.
Dr. Michael Conner
I know, hey, listen…
Dr. Christina Kishimoto
I’m so proud of the work you’re doing. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate your support and your allyship.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely. And on that note, everybody onward and upward. Have a great evening.
