Three Words for the Road Ahead

Michael Conner: [00:00:00] Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to another episode of Voices for Excellence. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Conner, CEO, and founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group, and a proud host of VFE. And today's guest is like one of those wow factors, soap. I met my brother Shokry now. Yes, Dr. Eldaly. Yeah, of course.

Michael Conner: Okay. But I'm talking about, I met my man at, at in New York City. I will never forget this. Three years ago we were at an event and when we're at an event. We were there and then we were like, man, let's, let's, let's go somewhere else. I'll never forget it. It was, we went to this Mexican restaurant and we wound up staying there.

Michael Conner: I, I don't know if you remember, we wound up staying there for a while and the, into my audience, the conversation literally from when we got there to about two and a half hours later, it was awe. [00:01:00] Talking about research, talking about education. I mean, it was one of the most fulfilling conversations that I had in a very, very, very long time.

Michael Conner: And Shokry and I, Dr. Eldaly have stayed in touch, uh, pretty much monthly ever since then for the past three years. Most recently, we saw each other at an AI symposium in Albany, and I remember I walked into the event. Saw Shokry. It wasn't like even a handshake. It was one of those big, long bear hugs. So, you know, without further ado, a as you can see, I have much affinity for him.

Michael Conner: I wanna welcome Dr. Shokry, uh, Eldaly from, uh, New York City, Queens, I should say that. Gotta call that out. He's a Queens, he's in Queens right now. But listen, his background, and you can understand why I had such an in-depth and long conversation with him. Uh, he is in immersed in the world of academia when we talk about [00:02:00] working at Bank Street College in New York City, and now currently he is an instructor in the, and you, you don't have to explain this too Shokry with the work and the research, but he's an instructor.

Michael Conner: And the doctoral department of organization and leadership. Yes, we're gonna have Dr. Eldaly break that down for us. But yes, he's at the Columbia University and like I said, you know, he is amongst the most talented, brightest, smartest researchers every single day. So you know, without further ado, Dr. Shokry.

Michael Conner: Eldaly, man, I tell you. Good brother, how are you man? And I don't know if you remember that conversation and it's until this day, Shokry, and you're probably shocked that I brought it up. It has stuck with me. We were at that restaurant for at least two and a half hours. Our food went cold. Drinks got warm. I mean, but Shokry, it was because we were just so immersed in it.

Michael Conner: But [00:03:00] that resonated with me, stuck with me. And I'm glad you're a brother, man. Well, of my, how you doing, man? So good to see you. 

Shokry Eldaly: I, I am extremely honored and excited to be here. Dr. Conner. Michael, you know, I, I was talking to my dad. You know about the way our, our professional connection, about our personal connection, about the way it's blossomed, about the people around us and the work they're doing.

Shokry Eldaly: And the thing that remains true is that our food always gets cold. Um, and that's typically a sign of a good conversation. You know, when, when, when you know, wait, staff comes to check on you and make sure there's nothing wrong with the food, and it's like, no, the food is great. We're just so excited to be engrossed in these conversations.

Shokry Eldaly: And, you know, I, I, I think about a few people when I think about these key moments, you know, you come to mind, uh, Brett Roer comes to mind a slew of other people, and I think at the core of what we've been talking about [00:04:00] are not just what we're able to accomplish quantitatively or statistically, right?

Shokry Eldaly: But there's this question of. What can we do for the children? What can we do for our families? What can we do for communities that maybe, maybe I, I grew up in Queens, shout out to Queens, you know, me and Spider-Man, right? Best Queens, but other communities that look like ours, right? And expanding that definition of community to go beyond zip code or a certain street.

Shokry Eldaly: That's been at the forefront of our conversation since the very beginning. This is my favorite podcast to listen to so I can, I can state that, you know, part of the conversation every time is what does this mean for people, right? How can we improve the quality of life for those around us? And for those who maybe we haven't met yet, you know, so this is, this is quite the treat and I, I think, urgently needed, right?

Shokry Eldaly: In the current climate. Um, it's easy to get disheartened. And so connecting and [00:05:00] being able to create and generate and you know, we had talked prior to getting on the call about the importance of hope, right? And this is where hope grows. So, you know, glad to be glad to be on the call. And you know, big thanks for having me.

Michael Conner: Oh no, Dr. Eldaly, I tell you one, it would be selfish, the conversation that we had. Three years ago, uh, when we were in New York City, that could have been three different episodes of part one, part two, part three because of the, the breadth, the scope of the topics we were talking about. And also too, Dr. Eldaly, um, I wanna say this right.

Michael Conner: So I saw reviews from your students at Columbia University, and I'll tell you, Dr. Eldaly, they love you. And I can only imagine because of the depth and breadth, conversations, topics, passion that you exude every day. Your students at Columbia University and New York, just New [00:06:00] York City, just experiences that.

Michael Conner: So shout out to you because that's why we do it, right? The impact of our students. To leave a lasting impression and you can tell by, and I can just, I know personally, but just I can just, wow. You know, being in a doctoral class where you're facilitating the learning. I want to be a, a, a visitor this year.

Michael Conner: Definitely. Just have my pen open and my Alright. Just, I have my pen in my hand and my notebook open to be able to learn from you, brother. But let's give them our audience kind of like this. Three years ago type of conversation so that they can be able to now bring it back into their professional repertoires and their tool of leadership.

Michael Conner: But Dr. Dr. Eldaly, you know, I, New York, New York State, New York City loves you, right? They love you. They, they, they know Doc, when he's coming in, everybody. Columbia University within the Department [00:07:00] of Organization and leadership. They want to take your class. Your class and demand is in demand. But for my audience that don't know you specifically, our academics that are in the higher education realm, or our K pre-K through 12 continuum, who know your leadership as you're bringing your research into the education vector, what song defines your leadership signature in education and the academic space?

Shokry Eldaly: That's a great question. You know. I will say very plainly, I, I'm a big Superman fan, you know, Batman's okay for, you know, if we're gonna go there. But, you know, I, I, I saw this most recently released Superman film and the opening credits came on and I cried, and I, I had to sit with him in it to figure out why in this moment are there tears in my eyes?

Shokry Eldaly: And, you know, I, there were a couple of answers, right? I thought about, you know, my, my parents. Saved up money [00:08:00] and, and went to Macy's. I don't even know if Macy's is still around and got me a Superman bed. Right. And it was the iconic Christopher Reeve on the bed animated, but you could tell it was Christopher.

Shokry Eldaly: Um, and there were something about. Knowing that Superman has asthma on his home planet. And I suffered greatly with asthma as a kid. And I remember watching the Christopher Reeve films and I would just hit rewind over and over 'cause I just wanted to hear the intro music. And you know that that composition by John Williams has always been to me kind of the pinnacle of, of what hope sounds like, right?

Shokry Eldaly: Superman for me has always been a story about. Who we can be collectively. Right? It's never really been about a singular person and this newest revised composition by John Murphy and David Fleming for the film, there's an addition to the crescendo at the end. They have both [00:09:00] modernized it and kept it classic.

Shokry Eldaly: And you know, for me, as you talk about Columbia, if you talk about Bank Street, when I walk into those spaces and I talk to students and I talk to other faculty member. When I'm fortunate enough to, to run into a, a, a semi-retired faculty member like Dr. Lyle Yorks or Jeannie Bitterman, or Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz, who is still teaching at TC and having a global impact, um, that's the music I hear.

Shokry Eldaly: You know? And so for me, when I hear, when I hear that Superman theme song come on. There's a blossoming of, of, of, of hope, a realization of not just what we've done and what we've accomplished because it's important to look back, but there's a, a light peaking over the horizon in that composition of where we're going.

Shokry Eldaly: And I, I think if I can keep that. I've got it on my, my Spotify playlist. If I can keep that at the forefront, [00:10:00] right, that it's not just about where we are, but it's that peak of light over the horizon and knowing where we're going, that that's gotta be the song for me every time. You know, it also helps when you're on the last 10 minutes on the elliptical machine and you know, you gotta make it, it helps them too.

Shokry Eldaly: So it's not, it's not strictly an academic, uh, position. But yeah, no, for me. There's so much wrapped up in that, in that composition and that, and that score, you know, it is me, the theme song. Yeah. 

Michael Conner: Yeah. And you know, Dr. Eldaly, I, I, I always think that when we look at education in this Mosa, I always think of what is going, what is the new rendition of education?

Michael Conner: And it's gonna be. For students IE generation alpha, generation, beta, that has those integrated threads within the composition of hope, and you are absolutely right [00:11:00] when you think about, you know the Superman, Christopher Reeves, you're dating us. Okay? You're dating us. But you're right. That collective hope of, or that that collection, that beautiful diverse mosa of this new rendition of hope collectively.

Michael Conner: And you said it is not this kind of singular thread. But this composition of what I'm thinking of to, uh, of this diversity of different levels of expertise to make it dynamic for hope, we have to have hope in, in, in this like to say 22nd century with regards to my research around shifting that traditional model, standardized model, because.

Michael Conner: There has to be that level of hope. There has to be that level of resilience, persistency. There has to be strategic vitality and urgency with this degree of veracity [00:12:00] behind this new composition of the work well stated, because I'm a, a big, I'm a, I'm, I'm a big Superman fan. Well, also Spider-Man as well.

Michael Conner: And 

Shokry Eldaly: you, I mean, yeah. That, that Queens, you know, I, I can't leave him behind. 

Michael Conner: Spider. I intentionally say, see only a smart brother like you, right. Would say, yeah, Queens, the association. Right, right. Already in that research mindset. But I want to talk about your research and it is extensive. Dr. Eldaly, a extensive right, ranging from Bank Street College to.

Michael Conner: Your independent consulting work that you're doing in education, how you're strategically applying that for capacity systems, site-based, classroom level capacity, and you as a current instructor in the Department of Organizational Leadership at Columbia University in New York City. Right. TC Teacher College.

Michael Conner: We know that, but. Now when we, now I want to thread this, right? Think about this from this chapter three. You appreciate this, [00:13:00] right? Chapter three methodology. You're talking about the quantitative and qualitative methods of the application within the study level setting. Just nerdy talk between Shokry and Michael, but, but what was your rationale to focus on these critical research areas of organizational dimension?

Michael Conner: A huge, I like to say this, this huge variable of leadership within the educational context. 

Shokry Eldaly: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think to kind of set the foundation for the conversation, right, there are two kind of critical underpinnings. One is, and you and I have spoken about this, but it's good to say it out loud as much as we can, is that everyone brings with them a unique lived experience and insight.

Shokry Eldaly: Right. And often poor organizational practice discounts that or overlooks it, right? We see it in schools, we see it in corporate. We see it in nonprofit where [00:14:00] people have these gifts. These circles of genius often don't get to use them to the benefit of anyone, not even themselves, because of the rigidity of the spaces that we work in, right?

Shokry Eldaly: And the second one being that no one wants to fail. Right. We, we all wanna be good at what we do. Right. That's a, that's a core belief of mine. I see it in children who are sometimes a bit braver than we are as adults, right. Are willing to do more at that. But as we're thinking about. Where does kind of the academic work inform our life, our habits, how we're living?

Shokry Eldaly: Um, you know, for me it started with efficacy and I didn't know the word efficacy at the time. Right. I mean, shout out to Albert Bandura has decades of work on this topic and you know, at the time of of, of kind of like this awakening, right? I realized. I heard the same rhetoric in corporate that I heard in schools was [00:15:00] that, you know, we give people the tools, they just don't want to.

Shokry Eldaly: And that didn't make sense to me, right? Everyone I know wants to be good at what they're doing. Everybody I know wants to succeed and see others succeed. And so there's this gap between, oh, we gave him the tool. We gave her the tool. We gave them the tool, they just didn't wanna do it. And this core belief of everyone wants to succeed.

Shokry Eldaly: Especially if they've signed on to work in a place that is somewhat altruistic right in in, in its mission. And so I got to this place where I needed a metaphor. I needed to get to a place where I could at least articulate the problem, right? We know articulating the problem gets us typically 80% to a shared solution.

Shokry Eldaly: And the way I kind of compared it, I said, think about being stranded on a beach. And you're telling me, you know, I, I need money so I can, you know, buy [00:16:00] food so I can get a boat home and you're stranded on this beach and you're saying, Hey, you know, Dr. Shok, gimme a hand. Right? Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll help you.

Shokry Eldaly: I actually have exactly what you need. I've got this shovel. And I know something that you might not know, there is a treasure beneath your feet. So if you take this shovel, you'll be able to dig up this treasure. You're gonna have gems and rubies like Aladdin style treasures, right? You're gonna have everything you need to succeed.

Shokry Eldaly: And I thought to myself, if this person then did not shovel. The argument that we might hear is that they're not hungry enough or they don't need these resources enough, despite the evidence to the contrary, we know this person is hungry. We know this person needs some kind of economic stimulus, and we wanna argue about, well, they, they clearly don't need it, or they don't want it, right?

Shokry Eldaly: And we start to think about, well, the reasons [00:17:00] why someone may not use that shovel. The first one being kind of obvious, they may not know how to use a shovel. And so when we talk about building experiential efficacy and having a direct experience, do we have an opportunity to actually gain some efficacy and learn to use the tool we're being given?

Shokry Eldaly: You know, I think about what is their core belief. They may have a limiting belief that even if they use the shovel, maybe they're not strong enough to get down to that treasure. Um, perhaps they believe that. I have given them incorrect information. So I've, I've not done a sufficient job of not just articulating, but evidencing that the outcome can happen.

Shokry Eldaly: You know? And the other part is I think about the role that I play in that perhaps, perhaps I do them a disservice as a bystander by not digging with them, right? We know part of how we gain efficacy is by seeing others like ourselves succeed. And [00:18:00] so we start to think about the structure of how we teach.

Shokry Eldaly: If we teach one another, right? It's the worksheet. Do this and you'll be fine. It's the take the book home and you'll know what to do. It's when you're on your second week on the job and there's a bullet list of things you're supposed to do, but no one's really helped shape what these things do or mean.

Shokry Eldaly: And perhaps we do an insufficient job of painting the bigger picture, right? We do this with students all the time. We tell them, you have to study. You've gotta work hard. Well, why? Right? What is at the end of this road, right? How does it serve either the individual or serve others? And so. When I started to do research around folks who were suffering from recidivism and incarceration, right?

Shokry Eldaly: What we found were those same efficacy components. When I joined the team to do research on folks who had either wanted to pursue doctoral study but did not, [00:19:00] or began their journey and did not complete it, we found at the source there were these same components of what is your self-belief, right? And how have we.

Shokry Eldaly: Either served you or missed the mark in helping you to build efficacy. Right. Bandura lays out a couple different ways in which. We can build the efficacy toward a goal, right? First is direct experience. That's getting the hands-on, right? It's not, it's not the death by PowerPoint, right? It's not in the fourth grade seeing a PowerPoint about how to complete a circuit.

Shokry Eldaly: It's getting, and I remember this being at PS 16 in Queens, New York. I remember it touching the two wires in the little light bulb lit in the fourth grade, and I thought to myself, oh, I get this. Right. It's the verbal persuasion, right? We talk about coaching in schools, we talk about co coaching in corporate, nonprofit executive coaches, right?

Shokry Eldaly: And. This idea of not just being coached matters, but who is coaching us matters, right? We know that [00:20:00] our affinity for a person, we know that someone's expertise in an area will change the ways we interpret their encouragement, right? And the more we see them as having expertise, we think about our teachers, our leaders, our parents, our family members, the people who we believe in are typically the ones who are best equipped to motivate us, right?

Shokry Eldaly: We think about. The vicarious experience of watching others like ourselves succeed. And even when this backfires, right, even when I see LeBron James do a spectacular dunk, right? Even though I am a Patrick Ewing fan, I will say that clearly, right? Number three, three all day, right? But you know, when, when I see James do these, these acrobatic motion, I, I go out to the basketball court and for a second I believe I can too.

Shokry Eldaly: I probably get a threshold closer to it because I have that belief, right? And then there's the somatic, right, is I think about myself [00:21:00] every time I step on a stage, right? My, my foot shakes a little bit, particularly the right one. Palms get a little sweaty, and we start to believe that these sematic responses are indicators of outperformance.

Shokry Eldaly: They're not. One of the most beautiful things I ever saw was an interview of Simone Biles prior to her doing what Simone Biles does, right? And someone said, is she nervous? And she was like, yeah. And they were like, do you think that's gonna affect your performance? She was like, no. Right. And so she was able to very readily separate that her bodily responses are just, just that stupid responses.

Shokry Eldaly: And so as we start talking about, you know, the connection between research and the world, we start to realize that the first is really supposed to inform the second. And there is an iterative component of checking to see did we get this right and how can we get further nuance? But. I think [00:22:00] ultimately it boils down to who are we committed to becoming as a globe, as a society, as a community, and then in turn, what can research do for us so we can get closer to those outcomes?

Shokry Eldaly: Right? And progressively closer, I think about. You and I have talked about this, the impact of COVID, right? And the explosion of, of technology, not just education technology, but you know, I don't even know that you and I could be having this podcast so easily in two different spaces a decade ago, and there's a connection between.

Shokry Eldaly: What research has provided us, and also then this conversation around how do we use this technology now? Right? So it's, it's not technology for technology's sake, and I think that's part of where the research is sitting as well, right? There's this really colonial concept of if we've created the greatest thing, we're the best, right?

Shokry Eldaly: And we're not looking [00:23:00] to be the best, we're looking to be the healthiest, the warmest, the closest, right? We're, we're looking to be. Advocates of one another. And so when we start to shift the goal from, I've got this technology first toward how do I use this technology so that we can all be better thinking about the interdependence, that's when we start to get a PLA to a place of research being really exciting.

Shokry Eldaly: You mentioned TC and Bank Street. You know, I, I do wildly different things in these spaces, at least externally, it looks wildly different, right? I get to work in the museum studies department at Bank Street. I get to work with incoming principals at Bank Street, at Queens College. I get to work with up and coming English teachers, right, who are ready to enter the classroom.

Shokry Eldaly: At tc, you know, I, I, I often refer to Aegis as the crown jewel of not just the the o and l department, but of Columbia. Uh, because you have leaders from all walks of life coming together [00:24:00] to say, Hey, in my experiences, I've learned a little something. I'd love to bring my piece of the jigsaw and have other people bring their piece and put those together to figure out what we know.

Shokry Eldaly: And I, I think that's part of the magic of, of Aegis is that, and I'm, I'm a proud Aegis grad, is that it has never been about simply replicating the research of someone else or trying to extend research for research sake. It's always been. Bring the insights of your lived experience, right, and, and the things that you have fallen in love with the theories that you've held dear.

Shokry Eldaly: And let's, let's all bring them together and see what we can create. It becomes a. A bit of a quilt to keep us warm. Right? And I, I don't know about you, but you know, for those in the audience who, like me, need a heavy blanket to sleep, right? Like I, it, it can be hot outside, I'm gonna put the AC on and grab the heavy blanket, right?

Shokry Eldaly: Sometimes we also need that to be able to [00:25:00] rest, right? Is that that community quilt of conversations and knowledge, it helps us feel safe. It helps us know we're not alone, right? And so. The idea of of, of research being an, an individual kind of journey. I, I think there's a component of that, but I, I, I think really the beauty of what research can be and, and, and what research can do happens when we start to think about it as a collective journey.

Michael Conner: Eldaly really a comprehensive response. Specifically. I, I loved how. You simplified and as you were simplifying organizational self-efficacy and breaking down the nodes, that makes organizational and self-efficacy really getting into the intricacies of that. You, you simplified it in such a way that [00:26:00] anybody.

Michael Conner: Could understand it, and I want to commend you for that because I can, again, live in this vicarious world of your students. I can understand why they have a in-depth knowledge of some of the most critical research concepts and o and l, especially when you interface both of them. But to my audience, the way he defined.

Michael Conner: Organizational efficacy, self-efficacy through structures of learning, student learning. You gave an example, you gave another learn, you gave an example about the importance of capacity, what support around that capacity look like, but the vision, the model of what efficacy can be defined and so in, in depth with that, and you are right Dr.

Michael Conner: Eldaly, the impact of COVID. Can. Now, I like to say promulgate, the aspect of research and the beauty of it, like you [00:27:00] said, is that the coaching, the experiences unique to live experiences where now you're getting beyond the rigidity and the modularity of these educational spaces. But I want to expand on something, Dr.

Michael Conner: Eldaly, that you stated, right? And you talked about now. The beauty, and I quote the beauty of research you stated, and I wanna interface this question because I think that there's direct correlation to, obviously I'm talking to an academic, you can challenge that. I'm trying to use it at a very high level, not know, chapter three methodology analyzed by rb.

Michael Conner: But yet, when you talk about the beauty of research, like what comes to mind, and this is how Shokry and I talk everybody, but what comes to mind is that. When you look at it from this o and l perspective, teaching and learning perspective, generation alpha and generation beta, how do we now [00:28:00] start to use research in this new way to level set 22nd century education models right to now using research to guide.

Michael Conner: AI within our operating models of education. So this new research approach, do we adopt a new research approach? And then also too, Dr. Eldaly, what do partnerships like a teacher's college, a department of the ONL from Columbia, how do they establish new partnerships rooted in this new research approach to advance generation, alpha generation, beta?

Shokry Eldaly: Yeah. Yeah, that, that's a great question. And I think the, the a part will kind of answer the b part about the partnerships, which is the, A part is do we kind of redesign even our, our expectations from research? And [00:29:00] I, I think the answer is plain. The yes, Dr. 

Michael Conner: Dr. Eldaly expand that. And I, I apologize, I surgically thread a lot of the things that you say.

Michael Conner: How do you redesign research before you get in the depth of your answer? 

Shokry Eldaly: Yeah, I, I think part of the research. Redesign. Right. And that's an interesting thing to think about. 'cause we talked about the Superman song at the beginning of this, right? And we talked about this kind of updated version of it, which still holds true to the original.

Shokry Eldaly: Right. And I think, I think it's a similar answer for research. It's not about throwing out what's been done. Right. Quite the contrary, we're, we're building, right? And what we, we kind of know is, you know, I, I refer to the, the depths of knowledge as cognitive thinking about whatever. Whatever system you want to use to think about how do we go from kind of elementary foundational thinking, right?

Shokry Eldaly: Learning the letters of the alphabet to being able to read and articulate right? To get into the deeper part. [00:30:00] The fact of the matter is, is we're able to. Organize our thoughts differently using technology as a partner. Right. And when I think about the purpose of research, right, for me, sit squarely kind of in one goal.

Shokry Eldaly: I, I, I don't think research should ever be. A mechanism for proving ourselves. Correct. Right. And there's perhaps when you think about the, kind of like the paradigms around research, right? Early positivist, it was about being able to kind of replicate and put your name on it and be like, this is what I say it's right.

Shokry Eldaly: And it's not what we're talking about. We're looking at a critical theorist paradigm. We're looking at a constructivist paradigm, right? And one that doesn't just sit in the qualitative, right. Being able to to point to the quantitative, and there's this idea of counterintuitive findings are the dessert of research.

Shokry Eldaly: Right? [00:31:00] And I say that because they. They feel sweet to behold, right? I think about the, the, the pastries. You know, my dad's Egyptians, there's a lot of honey in all of our pastries, right? And I can, I can smell honey coming on the tray from the kitchen to the living room before it gets there. Before, before the pastry even hits the table.

Shokry Eldaly: I, I know what's coming, right? And it brings me back to that table for dessert, even when I can't make a meal. I will find my way to my parents' home for dessert and a cup of tea, right? And you know, people ask me, how can you get excited about research? And I said, well, you haven't had the dessert yet. Once you've had it right, and, and maybe that's the first change, right?

Shokry Eldaly: Is research has kind of been, it's got a poor PR team, man. You know, people think of research as, as, as being this lonely place and, and aggravating. And while it can be lonely and aggravating at times, it doesn't have to be not at [00:32:00] all. Right. So I, I think first and foremost, we need to do better PR around what research can look like, right?

Shokry Eldaly: And, and what do we call research, right? One of the things my students at all levels of academia have kind of struggled with was the same thing I struggled with probably well into my career, right, is sometimes we'll, we'll provide these. Really in depth from profound insights that only we can kind of provide and articulate.

Shokry Eldaly: And then we read them back and we say, this doesn't sound smart, right? Because we've, we've heard this rhetoric of what academia is supposed to sound like, right? And so perhaps the first part is decolonizing academia, right? Decolonizing research. Right. You know, I say truthfully and honestly, if, if someone reads your research and.

Shokry Eldaly: Can't access it. And this is not talking about did they get every nuance, but they can't access it. Well, you, you've missed something. [00:33:00] Right? Part of the work of the researcher, particularly when you're articulating your research, is to provide the on-ramps and the entry points. It's the same thing we would expect of any good teacher.

Shokry Eldaly: You know, I think the other part around redesigning research is thinking about whose voices matter and, and whose insights are publishable. Right. And we've. We've entered kind of a democratized period in terms of publishing, thankfully, right? Where anyone can create an academic journal, right? Anyone can put up a blog or an a podcast or an article, and so you know, it, it doesn't escape me that.

Shokry Eldaly: I was gonna say 50 years ago, but you know, there are parts of the globe today that would be outraged that you and I having this conversation, right, they would look at us and despite the degrees and despite the books, they would say, how dare you? And maybe that's also part of the, the bravery that we pulled together as a community, right?

Shokry Eldaly: To assert that our, our knowledges, our insights, our [00:34:00] our communities are. Not side points and not statistics, right? But they matter much more than that. And then as we think about this idea of redesigning research, what's possible with ai, with technology today is we're able to get up to speed on what we already know rather quickly.

Shokry Eldaly: And I, I'll talk a little bit about what I mean by that. You know, we could probably research almost any topic. Come to some conclusions and gain some insights that we didn't have previously because we're able to access information and we've talked about being in an age of information for a very long time.

Shokry Eldaly: This is perhaps the first time where it's starting to hold true. You know, when we talked about being in an age of information 10 years ago, and I, I still kind of point to this now because we haven't fixed this problem, I point to rural communities across the US that still don't have access to internet.

Shokry Eldaly: [00:35:00] I, I, I point to neighbors in Queens that don't have personal devices that can access the internet. You know my, my own personal device I purchased in 2020 at the beginning of the pandemic. In order to run some of the programming available today, I had to buy a new device, right? So there still is a digital divide.

Shokry Eldaly: And in some cases that divide has grown, but so has the opportunity in front of us and, and that's, I think part of what we need to remember is that there's opportunity we didn't have previously. You know, we talk about the flipped classroom model, which was existed long before AI was in our hands. Right?

Shokry Eldaly: And the idea was that students would be able to do some. Learning of basic concepts at home, right? That do K one, do K two. I'm gonna get the basic concept. I'm gonna internalize it, and I'm gonna come back to school and talk about it. We're gonna [00:36:00] have the wonderful, robust conversations that. I'm speaking as a teacher, right, that we typically got to right before the bell rang.

Shokry Eldaly: Right? We can, we can fix that problem, right? We can do the basics at home and we can spend the entire time that we have together in school, really asking the deeper questions and co-creating, right? Imagining possibility, freedom, dreaming even, right? And that's, that's where we're at with research, right?

Shokry Eldaly: Where it may have taken me a few years ago. I'm thinking about my own dissertation, right? And being in the library and having stacks of dissertations, right, and trying to find keywords in a dissertation so that I can see if what I think Connects Connects. And I can see what I didn't anticipate, right, in terms of connections.

Shokry Eldaly: And that took months. Months I can. Now use technology to gather all of those things, and it'll highlight for me, [00:37:00] across categories. Across fields, Hey, here are some of the similarities that you might want to think about. And do I ever take AI at its word on this? No. I interrogate it. This is the fun part, right?

Shokry Eldaly: Is being able to bring your expertise, your critical literacy to what's being produced. And so often we learn more. From negating, a misunderstanding from exploring why even AI and being able to pull information from various places didn't quite get the nuance of the concept right? When we think about preparing for students as teachers, as professors, the things that we think about first are, what about this topic?

Shokry Eldaly: Is often misconstrued or misunderstood, right? Because we wanna bring clarity to those points. And so as we're thinking about research, it's not just what don't, we [00:38:00] know there's this question of what do we know, but don't completely understand. What do we think we know and how can we either verify or negate those things?

Shokry Eldaly: Right. Which is a much, it's a much more fun way of thinking about research. You know, I, I'll say briefly, one of the, the ways that I, I think I have been able to illustrate for myself where we're at, right? Just thinking about a debate team now, if you and I are in different teams. My goal is just to prove you wrong so I can win the debate.

Shokry Eldaly: Nah. 

Shokry Eldaly: Where this really gets interesting is when we're on the same team, because when we're on the same team, we may have different answers to a question and we're not simply trying to defend our point, but we're doing the work of expanding my point in your point, and those around us so that we can get to a better understanding.

Shokry Eldaly: We can get closer to the truth. Because all research is [00:39:00] approximate, right? Research is just about getting closer, about being a bit more correct than we were previously. I would argue the same for language, right? All language is approximate. You know, when I, when I tell my loved ones, I love them. Love doesn't encompass.

Shokry Eldaly: The way I love them, it's the closest I can get to expressing it. Right. And so research findings are kind of the same, right? It is. This is, this is the closest we've been able to get to being correct. And now we have mechanisms, we have tools we can use. To not just argue our point or try to bolster our truth, but we can really do some digging into the nuance of our belief and ideally leave each of those sessions, whether we're publishing or just doing an research on our own with an understanding and a concept that's a bit more correct.

Shokry Eldaly: That's a bit more just. Now we have something to bring That jigsaw piece I was talking about that happens in [00:40:00] Aegis, that's what we bring, right? Like, hey, I always thought A, but now I'm thinking a plus one because I read this. What do you think? You know? And our, our children. Admittedly are, are, are better than we are generationally at this.

Shokry Eldaly: You know, I, I I look at the current generation of students and I mean, shout out to the teachers and the community around them. Shout out to the families that have nurtured this, right? Um, we're shifting to a place where even students in elementary schools, I think about the one here in Laurelton, I got to visit just recently.

Shokry Eldaly: The students aren't looking to be. Lauded for being the, the, the sole answer giver, right? But they're looking at each other and they're saying, well, what do we know about this? And how can we get closer to understanding? Right? And perhaps there's a lesson for us as adults in that, right? Even as I think about the number of conferences I've been to [00:41:00] where you might walk into a room and it's an individual kind of giving you the gift of their knowledge, I think about.

Shokry Eldaly: How much more enjoyable it can be at times to sit on a panel and watch people co-create understanding in real time. Right? It replicates that moment we had in the Mexican restaurant. It replicates skills we've had with folks. It replicates those conversations that we have at 2:00 AM because there's an idea that we 90% have and there's 10%.

Shokry Eldaly: That's escaping us when we start thinking about research as being a meal, right? As being a. A potluck where we all bring something. Well, we're, we're redefining what research is and what it looks like. And it's no longer this cold calling of being up in a bell tower, right? Just writing on your own. It's come over, let's watch a Nick's game and talk about efficacy a little bit.

Shokry Eldaly: Right? Let's let, let's power walk up the west side, you know, and [00:42:00] think about. How can we maybe include more voices in this, right. Or, or who should we have called for this walk that's not here, that we have to make sure they're here next time? You know? Yeah. 

Michael Conner: Yeah. Dr. Eldaly, I, I tell you, wow. What a, what a response to that and the whole aspect.

Michael Conner: And the reason I ask that question is because. I always thought about what are some of the new ways that we can be able to challenge current research practices and methodologies to now move in this sector of living in interface manner with ai, specifically with education. Right. And I think now, and you'll probably see this with.

Michael Conner: More dissertations that are gonna be developed, that there's gonna be this continuation of research, but really focusing on gen alpha, gen beta, ai. [00:43:00] Operating model disruption, mindset disruption, and exactly what you talk about organizations itself and in context, but you, you brought up a phrase, and I love how you referenced in the depth of knowledge framework.

Michael Conner: We had Dr. Norman Webb on here as a guest on VFE, shout out to Dr. Webb and his creation with the DOK framework. But what resonates with me is this whole level of, and you and I. Next time I'm in the city, we're gonna have to talk about this decolonization of the research. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. I gotta connect you with, uh, my, uh, good friend and fraternity brother out in la Dr.

Michael Conner: Tyrone Howard. And his model, because when I hear about this decolonizing research and redesign of research, you're really challenging systemic culture because you're right, everything is around approximation in research. So that, um. That itself is just interesting. And one thing [00:44:00] and that I want to be able to highlight and talk about when I see you too, when we got more time, is this whole and to my audience, I think that this is the economy that we're living in.

Michael Conner: Specifically when I think about it from this time ecological standpoint of the before COVID during COVID and now in the AC after COVID, is that we're going to need. Counterintuitive findings to keep experimentation around prototypes that we are designing in our schools, our learning organizations. But going back to this research aspect that I gotta pick, I, I gotta, I gotta unpack your brain about this, decolonizing it.

Michael Conner: Ooh. But Dr. That I, now we see why our conversations and our di in our little, you 

Shokry Eldaly: go, yeah. 

Michael Conner: Lunch that goes into pa way past dinner. People checking on us. You guys all right? Yeah. This is, we 

Shokry Eldaly: we're okay? We're okay. Yeah. We, we, we may need a water, [00:45:00] but Yeah. Yeah. 

Michael Conner: Right. Because that is a topic I'm gonna pick your brain with.

Michael Conner: But Dr. Eldaly, I, I, I don't know how I'm going to be able to hold you to this Dr. Eldaly but. Three words on this. Three words, and this is for an academic in the world of academia, and you as this instructor, professor, leading it. Three words. Wow. So here's the proxification of this doc. What three words do you want today's audience to leave our podcast with, with regards to research science?

Michael Conner: Practice in the AC stage of education after COVID-19 

Shokry Eldaly: interdependence, community. Hope. Those are the three words. Those are the three words, but I, I think we've got maybe like two or three minutes. So let, let, let's talk a little bit about that because it was really your research to kind of put me on to this [00:46:00] thinking.

Shokry Eldaly: We had talked about the reality of, of COVID and how that has shifted. How we see each other, right? And not just you and I personally, but we realized perhaps collectively and socially we're all interconnected, right? I am as connected in many ways to someone I've not met in Italy or in Egypt as I am to my next door neighbor.

Shokry Eldaly: Granted, the, the length of those connections and the number of, of of Nexus points might change, but we also learned. Something about appreciation, right? And we, we started to think about who are the caretakers of our society and our community. There were some that we would've been able to list easily, right?

Shokry Eldaly: We would've thought about doctors and nurses and all of the, all of the jobs that kind of get put on the board in kindergarten, right? These are the jobs you can do in your community. There's the people we didn't think about. We didn't [00:47:00] think about the people in kitchens. We didn't think about the people who ensure that food can get to our door.

Shokry Eldaly: We didn't think about the, the people who ensure that our cities are sanitary. We didn't think about all of the people that make our our lives better, often going. Unsung. Right? And during the quiet moment of of, of the COVID pandemic, many of us began to realize the impact of others in our lives and hopefully the impact of the way we live our lives and others.

Shokry Eldaly: And hopefully it, there was an ethical dimension to that, right? Of what is it good to be and what role do I play in this? And when we start talking about systemic knowledge, right? And thinking about methodology, which is really, I think. At the core of our conversation, we start to think about the importance of mapping where we are, if we want to see where we're going, right?

Shokry Eldaly: [00:48:00] And what technology has provided us is we're able to map outcomes far beyond those that we're able to envision on our own right. We're able to see the things we overlooked. I mean, I, I think my greatest use of AI is this prompt of, what am I not thinking about? Who have I not thought about? What might be the potential consequences or even positive outcomes of these actions?

Shokry Eldaly: Right? And for, for those who you know are familiar with Weber's work, it's all about thinking about these bifurcation points, right? You talk about levers, I talk about forks, right? Where we get to those points in the road where we have to be able to decide not just what is good for us in the moment, but what is.

Shokry Eldaly: What is the end result of these actions or what are the end results? Because we know no moment happens for just one reason. Right. There are bevy of things that lead to even this moment, [00:49:00] right? We think about how much happened, how many interactions we've had for us to be here on this podcast, for this podcast to be something that we're able to do.

Shokry Eldaly: This is the culmination of things that happened when we were children, not just things that happened when we were adults. And so when we start to realize the important role that we play in the lives of one another. We start to recognize that part of research, part of academia, part of being community is not just a willingness but a commitment to mapping the impact we have on one another.

Shokry Eldaly: And when we start to see the complete picture, right, there's a, not just a safety, but there's an element of being able to freedom dream together, right? To co generate tomorrow's realities. Um, and so when we're thinking about. Technology, being able to operate as, as, as co thinkers, as organizers of our thoughts if [00:50:00] we're really going to get to where we want to be.

Shokry Eldaly: It can't simply be us interfacing with technology, but it's really about us using technology to better interface with one another. And so if I could offer any, any admonition or advice for colleagues, for community members for. The generation who come after us is to to hold, hold yourselves accountable to that commitment, right?

Shokry Eldaly: Of using technology to connect with one another, to uncover the insights that live between us and not to simply think about it as, look what I can do on my own. Right? Because much like Superman is a story of an individual, it's, it's also not, it's a story of who we can be. And so that, that, that. Light that I see over the horizon, right?

Shokry Eldaly: When I hear that song, that's ultimately our song, right? It's our light and it's our job now to map our way there, and we're finally able to do that. [00:51:00] Technology has caught up to the dream in some sense, right? And so things can go from dreams to reality as a. 

Michael Conner: Interdependence, community and Hope. Dr. Shokry Eldaly, thank you for coming on Voices for Excellence.

Michael Conner: Listen, if anybody want to get in contact with you, because I can tell you to my audience. It is, it will be one of the most everlasting conversations, discussions pertaining to education, pertaining to research, pertaining to anything on your mind. Um. Dr. Eldaly would actually just, he, he, he'll, I'll, I don't want to buy, I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna put any type of bias in the data, so I'll let them decide for themselves.

Michael Conner: But Shokry, if they want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do it? 

Shokry Eldaly: I'm easy. I'm, I'm Shokry.eldaly@gmail.com. It doesn't [00:52:00] go to a pa, it goes directly to me. It's on my cell phone. And what I tell people is if you go, if you haven't heard back from me in 24 hours, feel free to ping me. You know, part of the work is, is checking on each other and.

Shokry Eldaly: Really, you know, it, it's always a pleasure for me to be able to interact with others, to learn from their experience. Um, so, you know, I will reiterate the invitation. Please do get in touch, please, if you're already in the conversation, remain part of the conversation. And if you're not yet entered the chat, then come on in, there's room for you.

Shokry Eldaly: Right, and there will always be room for each other. You know, that's part of the work too. So, Dr. Conner, big thanks for having me on. Big fan of you and the entire a EG team, and, you know, cheering you on as we enter the new school year as well. I, I'm, I'm excited to, to, to see what's to come and, and incredibly grateful for, for this podcast because it remains, you know, I talk about hope, you know, in, in times of [00:53:00] Trouble.

Shokry Eldaly: It has remained a source of comfort. And also a little bit of motivation. Right. I'm, I'm gonna head out to the basketball court and pretend I'm Dr. Michael Conner for a little bit proverbially. Of course. Right. But yeah, man, big thanks to you. Big thanks to the team and looking forward to just more partnership.

Shokry Eldaly: Yeah. 

Michael Conner: Yeah. Ab shock. man I tell you. Like I said, I've been, you know, I'm upstate. You know, you're in the city and you have a very, very, very big fan of your work, roughly about four hours away up here in Western New York, but Dr. Shokry, Eldaly, thank you so much for coming on Voices for Excellence. Yes.

Michael Conner: We got another one set up. We'll put about five hours in, in the hold. I'm with you. Calendar, I'm with it. We'll do that. Uh, man. Shokry. Thanks so much my brother. I'll talk to you a little bit later. And on that note, everybody onward and upward. Have a good day.