The Word We Won’t Say in Education

Michael Conner: [00:00:00] Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and welcome to another episode of Voices for Excellence. I am your host, Dr. Michael Conner, CEO and founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group, and also co-founder of AEG Systems. And today's guest is a dear friend of mine. Um, we have known each other for, I would say, at least going...

Michael Conner: Wow, we're getting old. Going on five years now, right? Going on five years. And I remember five years ago when I attended my first CALSA Summer Institute, and Dr. Gutierrez was there. We got in a great conversation, and then we just started to extend that. And then as it started to extend, year one became year two, year two became year three, and here we are in year five, still going at it.

Michael Conner: Dr. Gutierrez invited me to the Coachella [00:01:00] Valley. It's the, it's the affiliate of CALSA- 

Antoinette Gutierrez: CALSA chapter. It was the CALSA Coachella Valley chapter. 

Michael Conner: And you were former, former president, right? Or still are president. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: I, I founded it. Mm-hmm. I founded the, the chapter, and then I was, of course, the president. And then, and then I, I've been supporting it for the past- 

Michael Conner: Like founding, founding member to president, and now in a, a supporting role.

Michael Conner: But again, brought me out there to unpack the 22nd century education model. We've actually started talking about having Dr. Gutierrez on Voices for Excellence season two. Oh my God. So now, yeah, we, we're season four now, about to be in season five in September. So Antoinette, it's been three years in the making.

Michael Conner: So she just released her book, has served in a variety of different roles at the central level. Very successful principal when she was there. Doing her own work now, and then just released her book, of course, I just stated, that we're going to be unpacking today. So it is my absolute honor to [00:02:00] have my dear friend, colleague that I speak to frequently, see each other frequently when I'm out in California.

Michael Conner: I'll be out in California two times in August. So hopefully we can, uh, get together, Dr. Gutierrez. And then, you know, her book, just started to actually dive into it. Feel offended because she hasn't given me a signed copy yet, but- 

Antoinette Gutierrez: I have to mail it. Well, next time you come out, I'll physically hand it to you.

Antoinette Gutierrez: I'm not good with the mail. I have to go places for that, and that takes work, so I gotta physically see you. 

Michael Conner: Oh man. As you can see, our relationship is so good. It is an honor to absolutely have Dr. Antoinette Gutierrez on Voices for Excellence. Dr. G- Heartfelt welcome. How are you? It's early over there now.

Antoinette Gutierrez: It, it is, and my day just started. It's 8:07 AM. 8... Well, I'll get- And it's, it's already hot 

Michael Conner: I, I'm, uh... Yes, it's, I can actually say this, it's hot here in Rochester. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: Is it hot over there, too? 

Michael Conner: Right? But that, but that's infrequent. I mean, that, that doesn't happen. But so glad to have you on [00:03:00] Voices for Excellence, Antoinette.

Michael Conner: Can't wait to see you again in person. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: Yeah. 

Michael Conner: So Antoinette, I'm gonna ask you a series of questions now. It, it, the, I'm, personally, I'm gonna be laughing because some of the questions, the, the first question, just specifically, I really, this is where now my audience and me actually get to know a little bit of who you are.

Michael Conner: I know who you are, but I really wanna see where you're gonna take this. So your work as a educational leader, consultant, and author is extensive in California, up and down, numerous awards that you have received in California, numerous awards you have received with CALSA. But for leaders that are being introduced to Dr.

Michael Conner: Antoinette Gutierrez for the first time on Voices for Excellence, what song describes your leadership signature in the field? 

Antoinette Gutierrez: And I was telling you before we got, we started recording, is thank you for sending this to me in advance so I could think about this one. I would say Where Is the Love by Black Eyed Peas.

Antoinette Gutierrez: I think that epitomizes [00:04:00] everything that I believe and I stand for, and the courage that it takes to make a difference Through love, which we're gonna talk about later 

Michael Conner: Foundational, right? Because around love, and it, it resonates with me because it's not discussed in education. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: It's not, and it really should be since we're in the field of humans and, and developing humans.

Antoinette Gutierrez: But we- it's very taboo, and it really shouldn't be, 'cause we have to really love the people that we serve so that the people we serve can love on the kids, and so that we are doing right by society as a whole. 

Michael Conner: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And to that, that, that's resonating again because, you know, it, y- you're right, right?

Michael Conner: When we think about education, when we think about how we're serving our constituents, our most important customers, i.e., families and students, our stakeholders, are we truly defining what love looks like? And then, you know, I really wanna now go [00:05:00] kinda into your book, right? And congratulations again. To my audience, the name of the book is Healing for Leadership: How Emotionally Intelligent Leaders Build Safe, Resilient Teams.

Michael Conner: Now, I wanna, I wanna add that emergent theme from your response to the first question. Love, right? Healing, love, being emotionally intelligent and aware leaders. But I want you to unpack this because this was another, you know, resonating point from your book. A healing leader, right? I, I've never heard it in that context, to be a, an intentional healing leader.

Michael Conner: Now, from your book, for level-setting purposes, what does the word healing mean in the context of leadership for someone like me or my audience who has never heard this framed together? 

Antoinette Gutierrez: So I'm gonna add a little bit of context on how that came to be so that you can understand [00:06:00] why it's titled Healing Leader.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So because I've been in, in a variety of different settings, I've had a multitude of different leaders that I've worked for, and some have been phenomenal that I've wanted to emulate, and then others have been not so awesome and not so amazing, and so they've really been damaging. And it's unfortunately we're in a p- we're in a field where people who literally even have not taken care of their own internal triggers or haven't understood how to interact with others from a place of love and really, really care about where people are developmentally are in these positions of high-level leadership, and they're literally damaging people.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So then, so that's, that's one piece of it. And then on a side note, and then on a separate note, you also have- The, the emerging themes of trauma-informed teaching, you know, s- creating a self, a safe environment in the classroom. We're talking about SEL, we're talking about PBIS, we're talking about all these things [00:07:00] that we want adults to provide for students, right?

Antoinette Gutierrez: And we, and we talk about that. We want them to be safe, and we want them to feel included, and we want them to be culturally proficient teachers and all of this. But what the gap in the literature was really saying was it has to start from the top. And so we start a lot of things from the classroom, but we don't necessarily start from teaching leaders how to model and emulate what we want the teachers to be able to do.

Antoinette Gutierrez: And so there's this weird expectation, but not-- There's an expectation for teachers, but not an expectation for ourselves as leaders to lead the work and to do the hard internal work. So all of that to say healing leader is someone who is, has done a lot of their internal work. This is a lot of pre-work.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So anytime you read books on leadership, it's, it's the strategies, it's things you have to do. This is the work that you have to do internally before you can do any of those things. So for example, when you, you're supposed to create safe spaces, allow different voices. If you have not done the internal work on what your biases are, on who you are, how you [00:08:00] respond to things that rub you the wrong way, how people come at you.

Antoinette Gutierrez: If you haven't done all that work, you're gonna be triggered, so you're gonna respond, you're gonna trigger the next person, and you're not gonna be as effective as, as a leader as somebody who's done the inner work. So the healing leader is someone who has taken care of themselves and worked through a lot of their internal stuff so that then they now can hold a space for other people while they're processing their own journey.

Antoinette Gutierrez: And so that, that comes in the place of some of the trauma that we experience from a day-to-day i-in the job. Also, some communities are more trauma

Antoinette Gutierrez: I'm thinking of the word, so I'm pausing. If we could ... Some, some other communities have a lot more secondary trauma that we experience through the students in the community And so we have to be able to, as leaders, hold space for people that are going through that so they can also hold space for students.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So that's how I would define the healing leader. 

Michael Conner: Un- unbelievable. Now, [00:09:00] I, I wanna extend on that because there's some subthemes that came from that, Dr. Gutierrez, is leadership vulnerability, right? And to be that lev- to have that level of, of vulnerability, exhibiting that to your staff, to your community, that's taking risk, right?

Michael Conner: But even before we go, even, even before vulnerability, I wanna say, and this is what my question is based off this subtheme, and internal work, right? How do we get leaders, or if I'm a leader, I, chief academic officer, superintendent, CEO, executive director of a charter network, anything, nonprofit, it, a tech company, leadership is leadership, right?

Michael Conner: Right. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: Even outside of education. Mm-hmm. 

Michael Conner: How do we get our leaders and staff to be that vulnerable to do that internal work which will correlate to better cultural dimensions, [00:10:00] interactions, intentionality around engagement with students, c- or parents, families? H- how do we now collectively do that work as a staff or a learning organization?

Antoinette Gutierrez: So there is a tool in the book so that you could do, like, a self-assessment, but I would say the easiest answer and the most obvious is model it. So if you're the top level leader, you have to be able to model it. So you cannot expect anyone to do it if you can't do it. So you have to sit with yourself and say, "Look, this, I'm not good with X, Y, Z."

Antoinette Gutierrez: And a lot of this came up between two different pieces of my background. One, my dissertation was on emotional intelligence, so obviously that's my research base of knowledge. But then on top of that, the other piece was I've done a lot of equity work. And so, and, and because I've t- I've spoken to a lot of my white folks, right, you have, there, the, how you present the topics about evaluating your own biases and things like that are very g- are gonna be very, uh, is [00:11:00] gonna be a determining factor for how people receive the message and how honest and vulnerable they're gonna be in their own reflection, okay?

Antoinette Gutierrez: So some of this work actually came out of some of the equity work. But without using the word equity, how do we frame it? And this is part of the frame. How do we frame it so that we're eva- evaluating our own biases? And it doesn't have to be around race, it can be around ableism, it can be around how our colleagues work, it can be around personality traits, it can be around all kinds of things.

Antoinette Gutierrez: But essentially it's, it's creating that gap between a beha- something happening and then our response to it, and elongating that gap as long as we can. So those are those things that also have added into the conversation. So to be able to create a safe space for leaders to be able to do this work, you have to model it, and it- Is, it is very vulnerable, but it also is very honest, and it's, it's

Antoinette Gutierrez: People will judge it, especially when they're uncomfortable, and especially if you're in an environment that that has never been the case, so you have to maybe slowly ease [00:12:00] into it. Like maybe not go all out, but start with the smaller things, and some things that are a little bit safer, and then you can get a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper.

Michael Conner: Yeah. And, and, and Dr. Gutierrez, I, I, I, I thank you for saying that because, you know, when we start to think about when we evaluate our own biases, automatically people go to it's about race, right? Or about our schools. But i- i- if you think about it, you know, we all have biases that we need to be able to acknowledge.

Michael Conner: And if we think about unpacking our specific biases, specifically when it's comes to an educational context, right? And I'm thinking about biases, you know, with I'm not a good teacher in ELA. That could be an internal bias that can actually impact instruction. You know, or I'm not ... You know, I, I love my students that love math because I love math.

Michael Conner: And so that's a bias that we have to be able to [00:13:00] unpack with that, and have that candid and honest internal reflection is needed. And then also I really appreciate how you said modeling the behavior, right? When we model the expectation and truly get authentic with understanding who we are from an educational context, I think that now we can be very intentional on 

Antoinette Gutierrez: who's paid- But also allow people to, to be able to be honest in their reflections and, and support that.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So whether you believe in it or not, again, you have to be healed enough to be able to say, to allow people to say things that maybe you're just like, "That doesn't feel good," but they're grappling with it, so you have to allow that so that they can take their own journey. And that's why you have to do it yourself before you can hold space for leaders to do it, before you can hold space for teachers to do it.

Michael Conner: Yeah, yeah. Understanding what triggered you, right? And e- we, we ... if we, if we unpack that, you know, unpacking what our triggers are specifically in the context of student behavior and how students respond, I think- 

Antoinette Gutierrez: Or adult behavior 

Michael Conner: Adult behavior as well. A- 

Antoinette Gutierrez: How [00:14:00] do they tell you they disagree with something?

Antoinette Gutierrez: How do they do ... You know, we, we do like, "Oh, that teacher's difficult." Like, how many people do ... How many times do we say things like that, right? We, we label people based on their behavior based on what we don't feel is in alignment with what we think sh- should be how people think We label people based on how we think they should behave as opposed to acknowledging this is where they are, how do we understand them so we can help better serve them?

Michael Conner: Absolutely. I wanna extend on that, right? Because I think one of the misnomers is that if we really underpin this work within our practices, within the culture, then accountability is mitigated, right? But, you know, extending from themes of your book, right, how should we, or how leaders, if they're doing this work How should leaders balance accountability and compassion, right?

Michael Conner: And then when I think about it, there's that phrase of accountability and [00:15:00] compassion, but there's the element of psychological safety, right? How do we embed that in our culture without it being mistaken for low expectations? 

Antoinette Gutierrez: So I would say love, those two things go hand in hand, and I'm gonna equate it to being a parent.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So we love our kids so much that we know they can be better people, and so we hold them accountable to what we know they can do. And I would s- and, and we don't lower our expectations because they're our own kid or because we love them or we have compassion. We actually have higher expectations, but we love them through it, and because we trust that they can be better people, that's how we behave.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So I would equate that to not saying, you know, your, your teachers are your s- are your children, but I would say if you truly love your team, if you truly care about them and you truly care that they become the best people in their profession as possible, which is a lot of times our job as leaders, then you have to be crucial conver- have crucial conversations.

Antoinette Gutierrez: You have to hold them accountable. Another thing that, that we talk a lot about [00:16:00] in, you know, leadership is clarity is kindness, right? So the clearer you are with the expectation and providing those high-level supports to get there, and people will get to where you want them to go if you believe that that's where they can go.

Antoinette Gutierrez: And you can believe where people can go if you truly love them and see that in them. So that's where I don't think there's a separation. I think there's, to love people really is to hold people to high expectations, and I think it's a disservice if you really care about someone to not address things.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Can you, um, Dr. G, because y- I, I, I love the fact that, you know, you use the example of how you love your own children, and you have high expectations for them, right? Absolutely. In this specific context, I just want you to unpack the phrase high expectation that is undergirded with your themes from your book.

Michael Conner: What does that look like specifically around this focus on love? 

Antoinette Gutierrez: Well, the high [00:17:00] expectations I'm talking about is in a professional setting. So for example, I would have high expectations that a teacher in a classroom does everything they can that's within their power to provide the optimal instructional learning environment, right?

Antoinette Gutierrez: Now, so, so it's not the expectation of, of healing, and it's not the expectation of- Of being a certain way. It's I'm gonna use the tool of loving and provid- and being a healing leader to allow them to work through whatever they need to work through to get to where they need to be professionally. So that's what I wanna differentiate.

Antoinette Gutierrez: And same thing, so if I, if I'm a leader of leaders, I want the leaders to be able to provide as much structure and support and clarity of their teachers so that their teachers perform at their maximum level, right? So, so that's, and then of course it can keep going up and, and, and all the way down throughout the organization.

Antoinette Gutierrez: But essentially the expectations are that work ability to get the outcomes that we're expecting them to get. And that's through love, that's through acceptance, that throu- that's through [00:18:00] psychological safety, but that's not the e- the expectation is that's a vehicle, less the outcome. 

Michael Conner: Yeah. I, I, I, I love what you said, Antoinette.

Michael Conner: Structure, support, and clarity. I wanna continue that, that element with around students, right? Generation Alpha and Generation Beta. Generation Alpha, 2000, born 2010,

Michael Conner: 2000, between 2010, 2025, first AI natives, technology integration since they were born. Generation Beta, 2025 to 2040, where they're pretty much gonna define what the, what are, what the economy's gonna be within the 22nd century. But what we know about Generation Alpha and Generation Beta, Dr. G, is that they are the most volatile generations in the context of mental health.

Michael Conner: So when I think about this AC 2035 economy, how should now instructional design, how should culture embed [00:19:00] emotional safety that is grounded in what we use hi- historically in education, the word rigor? 

Antoinette Gutierrez: So I'm gonna start with a, a book recommendation because this fou- this gave me a lot of foundation for this generation and, and what we might need to do to move forward.

Antoinette Gutierrez: There's a book called The Anxious Generation. I don't know if you've read it, but essentially it's the shifts in about 2015 that really changed our, our learning and development as the students that are coming up or the children that are coming up, and changing because everything that they're experiencing went from, went from very social interactions and learning how to interact appropriately with people, not necessarily screens.

Antoinette Gutierrez: It wasn't even screens, it wasn't TV, it was when social media became a pivotal component of what social interaction and, and acceptance looked like. And then also compounded with parents that did not allow that social interaction, that [00:20:00] unstructured time, that unsupervised time where you start learning, you know, social interactions on your own.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So now we have... And, and this is one of the reasons why we have so many students that don't know how to interact with the world in a safe way because they've never been exposed to it. So then of course, that anxiety gets compounded because they're even less and less, so then they're more and more withdrawn because they haven't had the, the physical interaction with humans, with other humans, to the degree that, say, you and I did.

Antoinette Gutierrez: And then on top of that, what is modeled as a, as the, the likes or popular behavior is not something that's transferable into real life, which is that s- you know, social media likes and dislikes. So the people that are popular in the likes and dislikes are extremely ridiculous, right? It's the ones that get the most attention, but they're not necessarily the most normal things that can translate to bringing to classroom or a store or workplace.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So those, that really frames my, my answer For you, because I really do believe AI [00:21:00] is definitely part in, of an integrated part of who we are gonna be. But I feel like we have to start first with creating that structure where kids get a chance to interact in the real world first so that they can emulate it in the, in the virtual world.

Antoinette Gutierrez: That way there's some grounded components, and that we're still guiding AI as opposed to AI guiding us, if that makes sense. 

Michael Conner: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and as a sub question to this, right, because I, I think that it is fundamentally important, and I love how you brought in artificial intelligence because we know Generation Alpha, Generation Beta.

Michael Conner: Generation Beta is Dr. J's technology, when we think about this as we advance, it's gonna be around ASI and agentic AI, not even what we're focusing on now. But what do you think are the biggest risk factors in education that, that evolves around technology and AI, and how do we move towards [00:22:00] exactly what you're talking about?

Antoinette Gutierrez: I think it's fear. I think it's fear. I s- I think so. I, I think there's a few things. I think there's fear, and then there's also a lack of understanding, and also our educational system does not move very quickly, right? So as an entity, we- Do not move to the speed of industry. And because my current role, all we work is in career tech ed, I am very aware of the fact that we have to meet with industry constantly to calibrate where we're getting kids and leaving kids from the school system, and making sure they're ready for the workplace, right?

Antoinette Gutierrez: So AI is a component of it, so we can't just keep doing all the coding for, for example, for our video game design, when now a lot of people can write in code. We'll have to still be able to edit it ri- at as of right now. But at the same token, instead of handwriting a bunch of code, you could literally use AI to, to write a code, and then now modify it, right, to [00:23:00] create a video game.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So that's just one example of how w- we need to align. But what we do is specifically CTE. So when you do, when you talk about a K12 system, we don't move quickly. We're also bound by so many of the bureaucratic restraints such as, you know, student safety, data safety, you know, so we can use AI, but then there's also like, okay, but how much can we put in that's gonna, that's gonna be taken and then owned by some company, and these are minors.

Antoinette Gutierrez: So there's th- so there's that cautious piece, and it takes us a while in education to work through those things. And then by the time we work tho- through those things, technology has long passed us. So I think that's some of the, some of the issues we face in education with technology. 

Michael Conner: Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, Antoinette, great, great points, great points because when I think about this now, right, and, you know, Generation Alpha, Generation Beta, most volatile generations of any kind.[00:24:00] 

Michael Conner: Also, when we think about, you know, Generation Alpha, Generation Beta, increased percentages, and this is factual based off of the data, increased percentages of mental health and emotional support, right? So, and- 

Antoinette Gutierrez: There's a connection ... 

Michael Conner: yeah. Deep connection. And that, and, and you know what? And I, and I think that, you know, there's that trade-off, right?

Michael Conner: Obviously, when, you know, we see, you and I, when we were growing up, our parents would throw us out the house. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: 100%. 

Michael Conner: And- 

Antoinette Gutierrez: Don't come back till the nighttime or the lights come on. Yeah ... th- 

Michael Conner: that's exactly what my mother used to say, "Don't come back," and she was like and then there was no cell phone access, so they'll drive around a car looking for you.

Michael Conner: But it was, I, I, I think about how we were growing up versus this generation, Generation Alpha, where a lot of their interactions are online, right? You know, we have to, as parents in what we did, we had to be in- intentional to s- now we have to be intentional to set play dates so that there is that social interaction [00:25:00] and the social dynamics of it.

Michael Conner: Even, you know, with my son, we, we, we get in some, you know, pretty heated discussions regarding you're not bringing the iPad to the dinner table We're talking, right? We're gonna, y- when we going outside, what, what are, what are we, because I'm trying to be cognizant with limiting, I should say. I wouldn't even say limiting, but finding- 

Antoinette Gutierrez: You're, you're intentionally structuring time for them to not be on, on social media.

Antoinette Gutierrez: And it's not even screen time, it's social media. So if you, the book that I mentioned has a lot of research in it, and, and it's not even, it's not high school beyond, right? It's really, it's the foundational years. So if we're able to limit and, and encourage unsupervised, and this is where as parents, we have kind of done the pendulum swing from our parents.

Antoinette Gutierrez: They left us all unattended, so now we're constantly watching them, right? We're like, "Well, yeah, there's murderers everywhere," right? So that's where we grew up, so you know, it was a scary place, and so now we're like, how would we let our kids out? But now we don't let our kids walk to [00:26:00] the, the, get the mail.

Antoinette Gutierrez: We don't, we never let them out of our sight. And so that also i- is, is prohibiting them from their growth, their natural growth. So if we can focus more on that, those essential, you know, interactions, and then as they get older, now they're, uh, now they're in that, you know, AI technology world, 'cause that's what they're gonna need when they get...

Antoinette Gutierrez: Now they have a balance. 

Michael Conner: Great point, because when we think about it, artificial intelligence, disruptive and emergent technologies is gonna be standardized within every single lever of the economy and industries by 2035. Last question, Dr. G. You made it. Even though it's three years late, we did it, but Dr.

Michael Conner: G, I'm only gonna limit you to three words. Now, I, I've known you for five years. I've never, ever, ever seen you be limited to three words. Actually, 3,000 times whatever equating to 3 million, but three words, good sis. What three [00:27:00] words do you want our audience today to leave with regarding leadership strategies for resilience in the '26, '27 academic year?

Antoinette Gutierrez: All right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with love, courage, and persistence 

Michael Conner: Oh, wow. You gonna be a rule follower. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: Who said I'm a rule follower? I know. I know. But look, because I figured you'd cut me off anyways, so if I said more than one word then, or three then, follow- you'd be like, "All right. Pick three and, and give her three."

Antoinette Gutierrez: So I don't let, I don't want you to pick the three, so you see how that works? I know. I'm opposition to fight as well. 

Michael Conner: I, I ho- th- this is, to my audience, this is the love inter- this is the love that Dr. G shows to me, but I want you, Antoinette, please, love, courage, and persistence, ex- e- expand on that. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: So love, obviously I think that should be the center of everything we do.

Antoinette Gutierrez: If we really care about people regardless of, you know, beliefs and, and personalities and where they come from, we really have to hold space for people and accept people different [00:28:00] from us. If, if we could do that, oh my gosh, the world would be such an amazing place. So that's the first thing. Courage, because doing something different than what everybody does takes a lot of courage.

Antoinette Gutierrez: To stand up and be vulnerable takes courage. To be able to say, "I love you," which I did do with my staff, because we got to that place, right? I would never cold start with, "I love you guys," but eventually we got to that place. Like, I love you as human beings, right? Nothing inappropriate. As a human being, I love you and I care about you.

Antoinette Gutierrez: That takes courage. To be able to do right by people takes courage, especially if it's not what the hive thinking is accepting. And then persistence is just don't give up. You know, in, in our environment and in education, there are so many reasons to be stopped, to give up, to get out of the, uh, the, get out of the field, to, to get tired of the struggle to do the right thing, and so just don't.

Antoinette Gutierrez: And that's, that's hard, and sometimes I [00:29:00] tell that to myself, but just to keep going, 'cause y- y- you know, to make that difference for people. 

Michael Conner: Absolutely. Love, courage, and persistence. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: Mm-hmm. 

Michael Conner: Dr. Antoinette Gut- Gutierrez, thank you for coming on Voices for Excellence. I can actually say known you for five years, good sister.

Michael Conner: I love you to death. You know I call you up. You are the homie. I always- To my, to my audience, I always call Antoinette the homie, so she know that, you know, for that for a long time. But thank you. Dr. G, if my audience want to continue this conversation, unpack specific themes from your book, or even just wanna have a high level cursory overview or summary of your book, and kind of leading that with leaders around being a healing leader, emotionally intelligent and aware of the internal work that they have to do, how would they be able to contact you?

Antoinette Gutierrez: Well, they can c- they can reach me on LinkedIn. It's just Dr. Antoinette Gutierrez. Nice is my name. I can also be reached via [00:30:00] Instagram. And again, just search my name and I, I pop up on those two, on those two. And if they want to email me, I can give you my email address. It's annie, A-N-N-I-E, dash julio @hotmail.com.

Antoinette Gutierrez: I have an old school one. I've never let it go. So yes, I understand there's judgment, and I'm not to the current age, but it works, and I still get emails. So until I don't get emails, I'ma keep it. You can email me. Don't be judging my Hotmail. It's not Yahoo!, so... 

Michael Conner: Hotmail, yes. Man, I love it, Doc. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: But I do, I, I, you know, and I, I am open anytime.

Antoinette Gutierrez: I love conversations if people have questions. The book itself also is its own reflection, so it has questions at the end of each chapter. So if people wanna take that journey, there's questions to prompt them on their own thinking. So if they're taking it seriously, they're really doing the work, um, there's, there's, there's a lot to wade through.

Antoinette Gutierrez: There's opportunities to reflect throughout the book. 

Michael Conner: Absolutely. And to my audience, please [00:31:00] remember to get Dr. G's book, Healing for Leadership: How Emotionally Intelligent Leaders Build Safe, Resilient Teams. Dr. G, thank you so much. You know I'll probably wind up talking to you next week, the week after.

Michael Conner: We always stay- Yes, 

Antoinette Gutierrez: call me. We can catch up. Yeah. 

Michael Conner: Definitely will. Dr. G, thanks so much. 

Antoinette Gutierrez: All right. Thanks, Dr. Conner. 

Michael Conner: On that note, onward and upward, everybody. Have a great evening