Karla Phillips-Krivickas is the founder of Inclusive Strategies and one of the nation’s foremost thought leaders on education policy and reform. With over twenty years of experience in state and federal policy, she advises state and federal leaders on sound policy and best practices to advance academic achievement for all students.
Dr. Michael Conner
Good morning, good evening, and good afternoon from wherever you are. I am your host, Dr. Michael Conner, CEO and founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group and proud host of Voices for Excellence. And today’s guest is a friend that I just admire specifically with her work that she has done nationally around policy, around policy development and policy structures. But the focus has been with students with disabilities and her voice carries weight. And I am I love to you know, I’m serving with her as a senior fellow for getting smart and some of her white papers, her blogs. You know, our paper says she has generated over the course of her education tenure has really moved the needle. And when we talk about someone that has a voice at the table and commands your attention. Today’s guest is certainly that individual. And I will like to welcome Karla Phillips-Krivickas from Arizona. Karla, how are you today? I’m done the way we were just talking. I’m a little warm or a little warm now. A bold transparency for everybody. We’re on that Rochester, New York, today. Yes, I can wear turtleneck. It is 44 degrees. Our Karla is in Arizona. It just when the episode she put on, you know, she she put on the suit coat where it is 100 degrees. So I actually before we started recording it, Karla, you got the AC on because it’s just I know you are out there that Arizona heat right now, but thank you for that. I mean, Karla, I have been, you know, a huge a huge admirer of your work, specifically your advocacy work for students with disabilities accountability, which we will go and into in depth and with this episode, but also on the vitality that you’re bringing to state boards across the country, more over of where you start your current role that you serve on the Arizona State Board of Education. But you’re also the CEO of Think Inclusion, where CEO and founder of that. So, Karla, we’re going to get into all of that, but just thank you for being a guest on VFE. But my first question, right, this is a fun question and I can’t wait for you to answer this because, you know, I got to hear what Karla is talking about right now. Full disclosure, Karla’s son is on his way to side, hopefully be signing a Division one basketball scholarship, so within the next few weeks. So that’s why, you know, Karla, she got. She got it. Look, I need tickets wherever he goes. I need tickets because I’m going to be a fan. Well, I just want to put that out there. But when Pablo was politicians who develop education policy, educators that contact you, contact you from the State Board of Education, your current role in Arizona, and even as special education advocates across the country when they encounter Karla Phillips-Krivickas for the first time, what song describes your vitality or inclusionary practices in education? What song describes you? Karla I can’t wait to hear this.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
Wow. I’m going to divert that for a second while I think about it and just let you know that my last name is Krivickas just on behalf of my, I’m newly married, so on behalf of him, I’ll make sure it’s Krivickas.
Dr. Michael Conner
Listen, I’ve been chopping up last names. Karla. So I would like you to say one more time, Karla.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
Krivickas.
Dr. Michael Conner
Krivickas, yes, I got it. I won’t make the mistake again sister.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
Man I am trying so hard to tie my work to a J-Lo song right now, I’m literally going through my workout playlist. I wish I could tie it to something J-Lo or Janet have said over the years, but yet the song that really comes to mind is actually it’s a song by Nicole Nordmann. It’s called Legacy. And in this song she says, I want to leave a legacy. How will they remember me? Did I choose to love and did I leave a mark on things. I want to leave an offering. And that’s that’s what I hope people encounter, is that they know that I’m not in it for the money. I’m not even just a mom. I’m doing it to make a difference. I want to leave a legacy. When I think about civil rights movements, right? It’s always been a generation passing the baton to the next generation. And there have been a couple leaders that I had the privilege of working with years ago, they feel have passed the baton to me. So Legacy by Nicole Nordmann is the song I hope they think of when they see me.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely and the work that you’re doing is legacy work. Your advocacy you know at the state and national level is legacy work. And you’re going to continue to leave your legacy, specifically what you’re doing, you know, with Think Inclusion and that work. You have done some tremendous work nationally in the context of policy development and advocacy support with grounded excellence, with students with disabilities. Now, for my listeners who are not familiar with Think Inclusion, you are the CEO and founder. What is it? What does the… what is the organization’s mission? What are your goals and objectives? And if you live outside or one of my listeners live outside of Arizona, how would they be able to join this coalition?
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
Thank you. My mission is to make sure that students with disabilities are included in every policy program and initiative, public and nonpublic in terms of foundations of philanthropic work. So often we use the term equity, but students with disabilities are not included. That’s my mission. I saw a gap of about almost 25 years of public policy experience at the state level, a little bit federal level. And then along that journey, I had the privilege of working in the governor’s office, the legislature, our Department of Ed, along that journey to give birth to two beautiful kids who also have disabilities. And I started seeing all the work I’d been doing through a different lens. Because in education we like to say, oh, all students, but we’re just not always including. And that was what I was convicted of, is really what would it mean to make sure that all meant all. And the other thing I noticed was that there really was no voice in state capital. Lots of people in D.C., as you know, and a lot of people at the state level that are ready and willing to work with families, to help them get the services they need to help them negotiate school relations, IEP. But nobody was talking about policy and systemic change. And I felt like the system that we built, it’s all very needed. We need to support this, don’t get me wrong, but I kind of started feeling it was like a system of Whac-A-Mole, like, okay, we help our family. Another one pops up, we help that family, another one, because we’re not fixing the system. And so that’s what compelled me to start Think Inclusion and my website is ThinkInclusion.org. Please come there. Think_Inclusion is my Twitter handle where I like to try to promote what that really means.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, the work that you’re… or the vitality that you bring in years of experience and I mean, it’s simply correct when we state all, because when we talk about all, the, I like to say, cause and effect is that we have to redesign and re-imagine systems and structures holistically in order to reach all. Albeit we still underpin status quo processes and functions that we’re not meeting and when we talk about student subgroups, specifically students with disabilities, historically we have seen that where those students are left behind and not included in the conversation of all. Now this is kind of a sub variant question when we think about this, because when we looked at it from an excellence and equity lens, what needs to change? You fix the system. You would play Whac-A-Mole? 100% correct. I concur with you. You know, we’re addressing issues and this siloed on really not addressing pockets as opposed to holistic in totality, fixing the system that resonates with me. Karla, what does that mean in the context of public policy?
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
So what I’ve learned in this first year is it’s really going to have to start with reeducation. I shouldn’t say reeducation, education because what I was vividly reminded of this past year was the vast majority of people in general know very little, if anything, about special education unless they’ve been personally touched by it. And what’s also been surprising me is how many people with even within education, don’t know a lot about special education. And there are a lot of myths and probably the one that has stood out to me the most is that and I say this tongue in cheek, but most people, when they think of images of special education, the images of autism, Down’s syndrome, hearing impaired, visually impaired wheelchairs, those are the visuals that come up. And we all reinforce that sometimes, even with the clip, our pictures and the things that we use in our reports. We reinforce those images. But what’s shocking to me or not to me, but to tell others is that represents less than 15% of Special Ed. 85% of the kids in special or receiving special education services have no cognitive disability whatsoever. Meaning that 85% of them that are getting the services and supports they need should be reading by third grade, should be graduating on time, should be in college, a career should be a done deal. But we think of that 15% rather than the 85% of invisible disabilities like dyslexia, like ADHD. And the problem with that myth, Michael, is that if that’s in your head and not everybody wants to admit this, I’ve had some close friends confide in me that that is true. But if that is your image, there’s two problems. One is you think special education is super expensive and it’s super hard and complicated. So when you’re talking about policy, if that’s your image, you’re not thinking… Let me give you an example, the issue I’m working a lot on right now in school enrollment and early college opportunities. When they think about special ed, if they’re thinking of that 15% only, they’re not thinking about the student who only needs one hour of speech therapy, who, of course, should be taking a dual enrollment course or early college opportunity. They’re thinking of the really complex learner and how expensive… Those are the talking points, regardless of what it should be. You know, special ed is so underfunded. It’s so expensive. And I’m not disputing that. But there’s 85% of the kids where that’s not really the case, but that’s lowered expectations. And so there’s been a lot of myth busting in this work.
Dr. Michael Conner
Karla, I just want to interject. Wow. And I think that is a compelling metric. I mean, something that I learned right around the 15% distinctively with the 85%. And the lowering of the expectations. Unbelievable. I just had to interject because I think that is such a profound metric that even though there’s a concentration on the 15%, we’re still leaving out 85%. So we’re not truly meeting the demands of all, am I correct?
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
Correct. So if you think about I was looking at a different state’s data recently and only 8% of the students with disabilities in this particular state are reading on grade level. 8%. Knowing that only 15% have any cognitive impairment whatsoever, that’s a crisis in my mind.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely. Absolutely, Carla. Absolutely.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
And… there was at recent, I’m sorry to interject, there was a recent Supreme Court case that was decided unanimously in favor of family. I won’t go into the legal details but at the end of the day, it basically allows families moving forward to have new legal options. But what stood out to me in the story, you know, just the story you get like on Twitter or whatever Instagram feed you get was it was about a young man who was hearing impaired and he’s now in his twenties and he’s since graduated because you know how long these cases take to go through. And he had basically never gotten the sign language, he never got anything he was supposed to have gotten. His parents didn’t find out until he was is in 12th grade. And they said, yeah, he’s not graduating. He’s not going to get a… he’ll get a certificate. The parents are like holy cow. Now, this student, this article specifically said he had no other disability outside of the hearing disability. Okay. He never learned to read. That is a crime. Yes, that is a crime. Yes. But right now, I mean, it’s bad enough that we don’t look at special education data per se. That bucket holds 13 different categories under federal law. There’s a big difference between the kid with dyslexia and the kid who has Down Syndrome. It shouldn’t affect our expectations for the record. But there’s a lot of nuance there. So one of the things I have been pushing heavily is that we all start disaggregating all state level data by the 13 disability categories. The Arizona Board of Regents was the first to do it for me. I give them a huge shout out. They reported post-secondary attainment outcomes last year not only for special education, the subgroup, but broke it out by the 13 disability categories. Wow was that eye opening and then sharing that with other states? You know what’s so funny? I didn’t know we could do that. Yeah, you can. No one’s ever asked.
Dr. Michael Conner
Unbelievable. And Karla, thank you. Because you know that level, the segregated data by the specific categories, 13 different categories, I can infer the conversations and discussions that were elicited by just disaggregating the data and concatenating those categories around broad implications of how we saw or the service delivery models for students with disabilities, including I love it, the invisible disabilities with the 85%. I learn a lot from you every time I talk to you, Karla. But here’s the thing. I want you and I mean, you’re spot on with every single sentiment that you bring, that you’re raising. But I want my viewers to unwrap your IP, your intellectual property, in a context of students with disabilities. You’re a czar. That’s what I mean. I want them to get into your brain. Define for my listeners, define inclusive practices, assist those who are students with disabilities in the AC stage of education, After Covid stage of education. And then I’ll get into the second part of it. But I just want them, in the isolated context, to hear what your definition is regarding inclusive practices and systems for students with disabilities.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
Let me unpack that. Inclusive practices at the school level, I’m not necessarily the expert, but I will tell you something that most people don’t know outside of special education. It’s actually something we have to report. Every state has to report to the federal government. The percentage of time that a student with a disability is spending in the general education classroom. And each state is supposed to have goals. That is, that’s a big deal. Most states, most people at the state level don’t even know that that data exists or that anybody’s even looking at it. And there are lots of different ways that you can define inclusion and support it. I’m not a teacher. I’m a policy person by nature, but I will tell you that it means there’s a wider scope of that. Inclusive practices is not just how much time they spend in a general education class with their peers. It’s also what does lunch look like and what do extracurricular activities look like. You know, what does the whole school experience look like? And that is me putting my mom hat on, frankly. My daughter has been blessed to be in a school where she’s in the school play, she was on the cheerleading team, she’s… They include her in the entire school experience. I’m not just measuring it by the percent of time she spends in a certain classroom, which is a federal metric, but that’s important. My unique niche is to make sure that we’re not forgetting about them in policy. And it just happens all the time. I can’t even describe it, it just happens all the time. And it’s that equity lens part that really probably bothers me the most because when I think of terms like historically marginalized, historically disadvantaged outside of Native American students, I can’t think of a group that’s been more historically disadvantaged or marginalized than students with disabilities. You know, my students are African-American. And I always joke that my son had the right to go to public school. And what, 1952-4 Brown, right? 54. My daughter didn’t have that right until 1974.
Dr. Michael Conner
Wow. So can you elaborate for my my listeners why that big discrepancy with 1954 Brown v Board of Education versus 1974? Most of my readers, listeners, including myself, are not familiar with the act, you’re talking about 1974. Can you just just provide a brief high level abstraction of what that is?
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
There weren’t series of Supreme Court cases that ultimately led to the passage of the federal law that we now call I.D.E.A., which spawned special education. They were not required to take students that had what we would have called back then mental retardation. And now they aren’t, so I’m saying she would not have been guaranteed to attend school. And I’m a tell you something that it wasn’t even think about this when we jumped on the call. But I was doing a training class this weekend on developmental disabilities, you know, in my little world and some of the moms and friends I have, we really still lament the state of the state and complain about things. But I had a really big gut check this weekend. So in this training class, they were talking about the history of developmental disabilities. They told me something I had never heard before. Did you know that Geraldo Rivera, back in the early seventies, did an exposé on institutions for kids with developmental disabilities. And I know that. And it’s really apparently what launched his career. I never knew this. Apparently, he was at dinner with a friend in New York in the seventies and the thought the friend was and I apologize for anyone listening out there if I get this wrong, I just heard it Saturday. But his friend was a doctor at will, which at that time was the biggest institution in the country. It was built for 4000 students, had over 6000. Wow. And he told his friend Ronaldo that he couldn’t do it, couldn’t do it anymore. He couldn’t stand he was witnessing such bad abuse and awful conditions. He couldn’t do it anymore. So Ronaldo said, What can I do? And I guess I think it was like the guy like stole a kid or something. So for all they’ve got to go it. And he wrote I honestly, I couldn’t even watch it. It pulled it out. I couldn’t because the pictures just made me sick there of what he saw. And so was a big gut. I’m sort of getting emotional. The gut check for me right now is as much as I can lament the status quo right now, when I think about what would have happened had my daughter been born 40, 50 years ago. And it’s striking what people forget then, You know, we people forget history. People forget history. Absolutely. I had the woman who met me in the hospital when my daughter was born told me that when her son was born and he’s I’m guessing in his thirties now that the nurse told her, just tell your family that he passed away today and we’ll take him there. Again, an institution that was just three decades ago here. So sorry about that emotional little rant, but I have to give myself that gut check, too, and think about passing the baton and leaving that legacy. I think about the people who fought for that. Right. And what I’m trying to fight for now and grateful for what they did.
Dr. Michael Conner
And I want to, Karla, understand what you’re fighting for now. Right. And when I look at you, you’re building the next set of shoulders for the leaders that are going to continue your work and strength in your work as well. Years beyond you and I are here, which I hope it continues. But you wrote this compelling report for the state of Colorado, Right. And it was entitled out to illuminate pathways for students with disabilities. I saw that in Colorado. Very, very stark report. Right. I will get this. Is that recommendations in the implementation process with that and some of the core facts identified in that report was on target. But it cannot just only be applied in Colorado but universally right. Like I’m thinking like how this can impact students with disabilities on a very, very, very broad sense. I’m like, wow, okay, this is not just limited here, but can be applied here, can be applied there state policy or public policy at state at the state level, you know, anywhere across the country. But from the report right now, rage is kind of one just isolated so that leaders that are on here, whether at the state level or even at the local government level, they have that report which strategies can be replicated or can be cogitating on strategically so that it can universally improve the service delivery model of special education in their respective state or district.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
Well, thank you for that question. That report or that issue of dual enrollment or concurrent enrollment. Colorado is a perfect example of state policy work in education. The issues are usually always the same by state. The solutions may be different, right? Given the unique policy or political context of a state, even their statutory construction. But the same. So I did that Colorado report followed on came before the Rhode Island where I just did a few weeks of similar in a national report. I did. And here are the three big issues I found generally one data. Nine times out of ten, the states weren’t even looking at students with disabilities as a subgroup when it came to using dual concurrent elbows terms kind of synonymously right now, early college opportunities. They weren’t even looking at students disabilities. That career persona just released its first report and they include IT Students with disabilities. And guess what we found? On average in Arizona, 24 and a half percent of students are taking dual drama courses. The number of students with disabilities was somewhat couldn’t even be reported. Wow. Meaning it was less percent. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, data, data, data data. Right. That’s the same of all states. I begged them all to look at their data and start looking at new data. Two is under the federal law, students disabilities have something called an IEP, an individual education. When they turn 16, it’s supposed to contain a transition plan to postsecondary goals that is an underutilized tool for AP, CTE, dual enrollment, all of these things. Those things should be baked into a student’s IEP. Yeah. One of my other recommendations is for State Departments of Education to develop some guidance, some manuals to really help the school level people figure out how to bake that into a student’s IEP so they don’t miss out on those opportunities. There are two is the biggest one. It’s a legal one. What I heard all across the country I talked to a lot of states was that the colleges are telling high schools that because it’s a college course, they don’t have to honor IEPs. Well. Well, the problem is, is depending on how your state defined it, I’ll use Arizona as an example. Arizona defines dual enrollment as a high school course on a high school campus, getting high school credit that they can also get college credit. Yeah. So me and some attorneys I’ve been meeting with like you cannot tell a high school kid getting high school credit that they have to let their federal entitlement go or what we call fee free and appropriate education. Their IEP has to be honored. Yeah, I found only three states that had said that. And that was Washington, Oregon, and I’m sorry, Minnesota, Oregon and Illinois. And hopefully with a little bit personal or state. I know you’re feedback, Karla. I know you’re pushing involve looking like a one sentence amendment that says IEPs and Final four plans have to be honored. Now, I made it very clear to the advocates that if a student requires significant modifications to content and outcomes, then the college can decide not to award college credit. And that’s fair, right? Right. But that was an example of an issue that I saw every single state mention it in some way, shape or form. But the answer is pretty much the same. It’s federal law, but it’s just it’s been practiced for so long. And we can see from the national data, let alone state data, that it’s not coming up. And I would argue that it’s a cart before the horse. That message has send a really dampening effect. I mean, if you’re a high school staff or a special education teacher and the college is telling you sorry, then you’re probably not even going to think about introducing these ideas to your students.
Dr. Michael Conner
Yeah, thank you for bringing that up, Karla, because again, I think that this is a it’s not a continue a continuous practice that we see in education is looking at data and examining unwrap in data in a variety of different ways. Right. And I think that is really important that we know there’s a depth and breadth and scope and scale of how we’re using the data, but I think it’s the right data that needs to be collected and analyzed. And you’re so correct, around the IEP and the transition or for rigor, I haven’t heard that you know, that language and baked into that are very, very important and I hope that your work, Carla, will be able to stretch across the country. Obviously, your impact has been concretized in Arizona. You have Exam A, you are a deep researcher with data. That’s what I admire about you, right? I know that I’m going to come with you or a come breaks up with you. I know I got to have the empirical evidence as well as what is the what are the quantitative associations and correlations with that. That’s why the the advocacy work that you’re doing. I’ve seen in Arizona your impact. I’m sure that we’re going to see that nationally. But let’s talk about the national work, and this is just the work that we’re doing together that I get to learn from you. Karla I’m telling you, every time I talk to you, every right now, this podcast recorded, I am learning so much with regards to students with disabilities and the policy aspect of it. But, you know, we have the honor to serve as senior fellows together for getting smart, but for you pertaining to you as a senior fellow, for getting smart, how has that worked and the organization’s strength and the coalition work? We need to support all students, right. I you have been doing a lot of blog work with regard to a lot of blog and generating a lot of different type of whether it be excerpts or even advocacy work through getting smart. So but my question is, what have you learned is one of the biggest problems of practice as it pertains to advancing this work of all? And I want to include that now what my new critical learning, the 15% and the 85%, that 100%. Right. How do we advance the work for all in order not to lose the next two generations of students that we’re seeing right now and the AC stage of education, Generation Z and Generation Alpha?
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
So I’ve been blessed to be working with getting smart on and off for many years. They’ve been advocating for innovation, competency based learning, personalized learning long before quote. But yeah, we took our path, probably talked about this too much, but we all know that COVID shed a light on education we’ve never seen. It’s brought about a shift. Yeah, and the parents got a bird’s eye view of their child’s education like they had never had before. And the students got to experience new and different ways to learn. And it generated even more discontent with the one size fits all model. And I think that’s the connection between the great and fun work we’re doing. Getting smart in the work that I’m doing. I’ve long been saying the personalized learning is special education, done, well done right for all kids with Ed to share something really fun with you, I’m actually writing a paper on this, or a novel works on how precise learning and special education work together. And I interviewed a gentleman from Utah. I’m I quote that he gave I thought was so good. He said The advent of special education was a recognition that not all students fit in the traditional one size fits all. While personalized learning is admission that really no one does. Right. And and I just love that because he’s absolutely right. 40, 50 years ago we said maybe there’s some kids that need some extra help accommodations, modification and now post code literacy we’re we’re going the why are we trying to fit our body into this model and I love that it’s it’s a time that’s that’s come it’s a time that’s come we shouldn’t be questioning. Well, why does only one kid need extra time? Why does only one kid need triangle crayons? Why does why doesn’t everybody get these things? We really want to engage learners in a way that is new and profound. Absolutely. And and, Karla, I love your definition. Where yes, personally is learning that precision around or personalized instruction. And you’re right, it’s really individualized at its best. And monitored and changed at this copious level of intent. And I see that you know it is a every student should be on and I hate if we’re going to reach that level of personalization with all of our students. But you know, I want to ask a sub very question because, you know, we have IEP rate and IEP, you know, you know, federal policy with the implementation of IEP. And we have to meet specific mandated hours with with our students with disabilities. But why do we see ad hoc implementation across the country? Okay, we you just made a simple you know, we’re going back to the last question that was asked, and your answer is IEP is in the context of there should be a transition where this tool is being under utilized for rigor and access. But how do we even get to a level of just implementing IEPs with a level of integrity and fidelity at the site base level? Michael If I could answer that question, I’d be quickly going a little world. That is such a heavy question. It would take so much time. But I’m I will let me share this with you, though. First of all, I want to go back on something already said. I’ll come back to what you just said. The word individualized scares people and even personalize. And I’ve seen that over and over the years and even in the interviews I’ve done for this recent project, because what that what a teacher envisions 30, 30 student plans right there already. And but what I’m learning from these people, the people they’ve been interviewing recently, is that what it means is that you’re really developed, you’re giving a level of flexibility and a menu of different ways that different kids can access it. Yeah, And I think that’s a really thing that’s a really important thing to think about. So it’s not about custom 30 individual plans. It’s about providing designing an environment that’s got built in flexibility that students know they can access the content and demonstrate their knowledge in different ways. Right? So while some white out, those two words make people nervous, all the things I’ve been thinking probably all too much lately is is actually a piece I’d been wanting to write. And it’s called Tear Down the Wall. There’s just this wall that is developed over the years between special education and general education. And you can see it at the State Department. You can see at a district administrative office, you can see it school, others you’ll see in classrooms and you can hear it when you hear these terms and you hear mocked. And if you listen, these kids, those kids, you know, and why things they’ve been thinking about and I’m going to throw a big idea out there because I know you like the crazy ideas some are throwing out there when when people enter the College of Education, regardless of the university. By the way, what’s one of the first decisions they have to make, whether they’re going to pursue a general education certificate or elementary and secondary or a special education certificate? So I’ve been thinking a lot that we’re literally putting the foundation for that all our day one, because we’re basically asking them to choose which kids they want to specialize in or teach. And then we’re shocked when ten years later they said, Oh, I don’t teach those kids. I feel like we’re really laying that at the very level. And that’s why I’ve been spending a lot of my time thinking about this. How do we unwind that? Because we also know, I should say, we people who are great teachers, I’m not a great teacher, but great teachers have always told me one thing over the years. Great teaching is great teaching for all kids. Absolutely. So if that’s the case, why why are we such a bifurcated system? If we know the strategies that will work for the kids most at risk? Regardless of that, they’re gifted, they have a disability. If they’re English language learners, we know that those strategies work for everybody. Why don’t we just teach him those? I just have to tell you, cause that’s been on my head a lot lately.
Dr. Michael Conner
Thank you. No, no, not my. You know, I don’t sleep with Karla. I could tell. You know, you bring in this vitality and veracity around our words, trying to change the policy structure and the implementation and execution of those historical policy structures that have students behind. Specifically, when we look at students with disabilities, how we can ensure that we’re capturing and capturing the voices of our students. And what I mean by the voices of our students is that, you know, the student group that has historically been left behind, as I stated, I’m thinking about this not even from an anecdotal standpoint, but quantitative and the antecedents of quote unquote, excellence that we supposed to see within our traditional teaching and learning norms. So I think that you’re defining the new normalization through your advocacy and your policy work. So I appreciate that. But I want to underscore that because you have, you know, done previous work at the federal level. You done pre you’re right now your current work at the state level, how you’re helping states all across the country. But your current role on the Arizona State Board of Education, RAINN, is bringing this renewed level of rigor and accountability to advance outcomes at this exponential rate for students with disabilities. Now, this new paradigm of the stage of education, because again, I really want people to unwrap your thinking with this. Define accountability. Right. And, you know, I’m going to ask, is Karla, I’m right which you just that define accountability. But here’s the thing sustained accountability and what does it look like from an implementation standpoint at the policy level or policy perspective down to the SCA or the SCA to the LCA logo Education Agency? And then in the school process, within our schools, in our buildings.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
I have always been a firm believer of accountability, it is critical for parents. Schools need to be accountable to parents. Yeah, so there’s got to be a level of transparency there. So one thing that, you know, getting smart has been talked about for a long time is that, you know, the traditional letter grade system in schools is basically, you know, turning in your homework’s in the dust for 880 days very compliance where it’s it’s not really a demonstration of what mastery is or what they really learn. So that I mean we know that we know the parents to depend primarily on grades from their teachers to determine how their child’s doing which goes back to that Supreme Court case. That’s what the parent set when getting good grades. But why we’re now you’re telling us that that was an example of that you at the state and the federal level. It’s such a complicated question and unfortunately one that is important for a long time in a lot of different roles. I’ll say this, I do believe there’s got to be a new generation of accountable. It’s going to take a long, long time because that it’s about what data do you have. And the data that we have is based on the standards that we have. It’s all a very complex system. So the only way you’re going to change can’t really in the very long run, and this is a very long run, is to really rethink what it is we’re expecting students to able to know and do when they leave college or leave high school. Sorry. Yeah. So at the end of the day, in our state, our state assessment system, which I support, it was a critical part of No Child Left Behind and bringing transparency for all kids at the end of the day gives us a really good picture of what math and reading at certain grade levels critical, important for me, Ms. talks, and we can use it to measure everything. But we there’s other things that we want our students to be able to know and do when they leave high school. And that’s the conversation that we’re going to have as seats. Absolute life and know that it’s going to be its cost, though the problem is it’s money. State testing costs money. So it’s a very political conversation and also depends on how high the stakes a state makes it for your schools. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that Karla, when I look at this right, accountability has to be redefined so that we do see the outcomes or the inputs would would have this high level of quality and efficacy to be able to address students with disabilities and also the multiple student groups that we are seeing or that as the new demographic and education. But it just resonates with me, right? I’m going to I keep one reference in back to where you said the invisible disabilities of 85%, and I think a lot of people across the country really have it. When we look at students with disabilities, the 15%, the concentration with the 85%, I think that historically or we continue to look at them or not pay attention, I should say, where there should be focus and vitality around the 85%. So that cumulative 100 of all is there. But you’re right, rethinking what high school look like in that new generation of accountability day to day to day two. Data transparency, transparency, transparency, absolute. Now, here’s a day at Karla. Let’s unwrap that. Right. What is transparency and accountability look like in this reciprocal manner? Because again, transparency, we can spend another hour on what that look like in the context. But 30 seconds, if you could just elaborate on it for my listeners.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
I think what parents saw was a lack of transparency, like when’s on school shutdown? We didn’t know what to do. Right, Right. Yeah. Schools that are using more personalized competency based learning systems, they have systems in place that you know exactly what a student is working at any given day. Yeah, that that and some schools are still trying to do that. You know everybody started using Google Cloud. Everything happened overnight. There was, oh, my gosh, we don’t know where the kids are. That is one of the things I think parents saw and did not worry. And we want to know what are they working out? What are they learning what are the things that we can be working on at home? That’s the kind of transparency I’m thinking about. And at the state level, lots of more data. Disaggregation, I think is needed. Also, if you don’t mind, I want to put a disclaimer out there. I know some of the terms like invisible, may be uncomfortable to some of the disability advocates out there. And for them, I apologize, but I want to say this. I have spent the past year really trying to figure out how to communicate the issues in special education to people who don’t know anything. So I want to put that disclaimer. That’s why I use some of the terms that I use is to try to unwrap that these really complicated terms for people who are not immersed in this world every day. And also it’s also been interesting to me to realize that think a lot of people shy away from the issue for a couple of reasons. One is it’s very legally contentious. We all know that. But and two, because they’re afraid of saying the wrong thing in the front and offending someone. So that’s why I’m even offering a disclaimer. And I often joked also scared of Big Mama bears like me that can cry at the drop of a hat. And it’s and it’s true. It’s very so and I’m sorry I mean and know one thing I want to touch back on the gen-z and the alpha thing that really stands out to me because that’s such an important thing. The work that getting smart does when you think of and I have that chance, I have that sign 90 when I think of him and actually my daughter too. What are the two things I think of is that they’re used to getting anything they want on demand. Yeah. And you’re used to be able being able to curated to personalize it themselves. Then we ask them to go back to school and experience the complete opposite. So those are the two things. Think of the three things I think of that we should be learning about is better transparency. Students being able to kind of own their own learning share rate, their experiences and being able to access more of them.
Dr. Michael Conner
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is the new economic demand, right? I mean, if you think about it, and that’s what our kids experience. My son, he’s a Jedi. You know, he’s part of Generation Alpha. He’s eight. I remember I put a rotary phone in front of me TV Never. Yeah. No. And and I think about it is that he and highly manipulate an iPad or an iPhone in ways that I don’t know how to, but we’re still educating our students or my son, you know, still and I’m thinking about this not at you know, when I’m thinking about holistically. We’re still educating kids in this rotary phone industrial model. And I mean, we see it right, this this disjunction or this misalignment of this demand that our students engage in. And, you know, going back to more monolithic, that that those static approaches that we need to change. Last question, Karla, last question. I don’t know how I don’t know. I mean, you’re you’re you’re a disruptor, right? You’re I like to say, a serial disrupter. So take this question as it is. I’m not one to essentially limit you, Karla, because, again, you’re right. A lot of people do not know right, do not know, including myself on the really deep, complex intricacies with this whole phenomenon as a speaks with or speaks to students with disabilities. And I really, really appreciate you bring in your your your deep, deep understanding and knowledge around this area. But what three words do you want today’s audience to leave our podcast with? With regards to inclusive education, I left it very abstract on purpose so that you can get down to that disaggregated level of specificity to identify the three words with inclusive education. What three words would you define? The paradigm of education or students with disabilities?
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
I’m writing. I’m right on thinking, Well, I’m going to see the first one will probably surprise, well, not you, which may surprise other research. Yeah, we are decades of research that shows that students who are in classrooms with typical peers achieve better. They achieve higher, they do better. There is no research to show that students will do better in a self-contained environment with students like them. But that’s kind of what people think. So I would say research because we’re not designing based hard research right now. We’re designing that based convenience and other things are, Yeah, yeah, I’ll take the next word I throw out. I know can be precarious for some loved by others. It’s equity. Making sure that a true equity lens includes all kids. Mm. A third one. The third one. It’s not really a word, it’s more of a phrase, but I’m just. Yeah, I’m always real with you. Yeah. For me it’s about I think of Image Bear. I believe that all kids bear the image of of our law and in they’re all children and so
Dr. Michael Conner
You get you can add on to that please because I draw Bible verses at least once or twice every other episode. Go right ahead, sister.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
Thank you. And so as I follow through, there’s not one word, but that looks to me that it’s the core of what I believe or what I think. What I do. It’s developing the God given potential of every child because they all bear the image of their Creator so.
Dr. Michael Conner
Listen, Karla, don’t look, I everybody knows, right? My mother is is you know, she she’s a deaconess of a church every day. She’s she’s giving me a new Bible scripture, your son. Right. And you are right. These students should be able to read, reach their potential within the image of God. Right. And that’s just me. I mean, is this how I believe that’s how I was raised, Right. And raised on the context, the word. And that’s why we’re here today. And while we’re both women and able to do God’s work, I like to say, to create equitable environments, like you said, with an equity lens. But now when I go back home, I go back and expand all this into my audience, which I hope is that now we should start in our work with research, write research and data data. You know, those are two major themes that I took from this podcast. I mean, obviously, please and a asynchronous manner, just like on demand. My listeners please go back and there’s a lot of nuggets that Karla had identified. But again, that theme of research and data to be able to not only just drive policy development and language, but also implementation. So Karla Phillips-Krivickas. Yes, right. I got was no slip closed. I ain’t going to say no more. I’m just what I call I always just say Karla. So at insist the it has been an absolute pleasure for you to be all voices for excellence. Now, I mean, I know this is going to be an up and down time for you because this is about to make his announcement and his choice. And I’m always going to say this. I’m going to be brave for you says and I know God is about to lead him to the right decision where he’s going to wind up.
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity and thank you for all that you do. Look forward to seeing you soon.
Dr. Michael Conner
Well we are going to see each other soon. But right before we get off, when my listeners write my advocates policy policy was politicians that want to be able to get in contact with you with regards to, you know, really strengthening the implementation of laws when it pertains to students with disability or even taking a look at their own current policy language as structure and how to be able to improve that or accelerate specific inputs in throughputs, how would they be able to get in contact with you?
Dr. Karla Phillips-Krivickas
My website is ThinkInclusion.org, my Twitter handle is Think_Inclusion, and my email is Karla@ThinkInclusion.org.
Dr. Michael Conner
Karla, thank you so much, Sister. I work forward to seeing you soon. On that note, onward and upward, everybody. Have a great evening.
