Present, But Not Propelled

Michael Conner: [00:00:00] Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to another episode of Voices for Excellence. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Conner, CEO and founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group and co-founder of AEG Systems. And today's guest is someone I absolutely admire. When we first got on, even today before the actual recording, whenever you put us two together, it just turns from a two-minute conversation, supposedly, to two hours and two minutes later.

Michael Conner: But love having her on, just love her perspectives. And I said to her, "It would be absolutely selfish if I don't get you on my podcast." So we have our today's guest is Dr. Donna Wright. Many of you know her. She has just been just a, a, a mainstay in education with over 40 years in the ecosystem. A former superintendent, I should say retired superintendent, and then also was the Tennessee Superintendent of the [00:01:00] Year in 2020, leading such an eclectic and important group at AASA with the w- with the Women's Consortium, and just provides, I like to say, mentorship to all the leaders out there across the country.

Michael Conner: And happy to be serving with her on our board together. Please, and Donna, when we meet for our retreat, Dr. Wright, you sit on one side and I sit on the other side because if we wind up sitting next to each other, we're just gonna completely derail the retreat or any of our meetings. But it's just gonna be an honor to serve with you.

Michael Conner: But without further ado, welcome to VFE, Dr. Wright. 

Dr. Donna Wright: Thank you, and I promise that when I grow up, I will get better at not, you know, going on. But that's just who I am. 

Michael Conner: Oh, yeah. And, and Dr. Wright, I tell you, you know, your, your passion, it motivates me, right? It motivates me, the conversations that we have. And I, like I said, I was like, it would be selfish if I didn't get you on for season five to bring us there [00:02:00] because, yeah, leadership is challenging, especially executive leadership is challenging these days.

Michael Conner: Um, you broke many glass ceilings and continue to break glass ceilings for leaders across the country. Specifically when we look at women in executive leadership, still at an alarming rate or that percentile, or that metric I should say, that we still need to have broader representation, increase that percentage of women in leadership exponentially.

Michael Conner: And the work that you're doing across the country, uh, is level setting that, and I wanna be able to get that work out there so we can be able to really move the needle. But our first question, Dr. Wright, and I'm very, very, very interested in knowing what your song is, but you're a leading voice in education with over 40 years, recognized superintendent.

Michael Conner: I mean, I even knew who you were before, you know, you even knew who I was, but... And the leading one of the most impactful leadership programs at AASA. But for those that do not know Dr. Donna [00:03:00] Wright, what song describes your leadership signature in the ecosystem? 

Dr. Donna Wright: Oh, and, and this is one I had-- it wasn't that I had to give pause to, Michael, but I had to sit there and think about it because I think it's one of those that if I had to label a song, it's evolved.

Dr. Donna Wright: And, you know, the first one that came to mind was Rise Up by Andra Day, and it's just simply because of the words in it as far as it, you know, you lead with, uh, steadiness. You, the idea that you elevate others, you know, it's heart and conviction. But the one, the one that really, I guess, amplifies what I believe and what I stand for is the song Brave by Sara Bareilles.

Dr. Donna Wright: And it's, it, you know, and it's, it's, it's really an anthem if anything is that. And I've used this in some of my leadership work that I do as far as let's see how big your brave is, particularly for women. And it's the whole idea as far as let your words be anything but empty. I mean, I'm taking phrasing out of the song.

Dr. Donna Wright: Let the words [00:04:00] fall out honestly, speak up, and the idea that you could turn a phrase into a weapon and, and many times- As women, you have to be brave. More so today really, believe it or not, than what we would've seen a decade ago because there is a different climate right now that many women are operating under.

Dr. Donna Wright: And so they've quieted their voice and the bravery and the courage is still there, but it's almost as if they have to wait and make sure, is this where I take a stand or do I wait? And, and so that's something, it's, it's not even about coaching, but it's the idea that strength in numbers. As I tell the ladies I work with, we hold hands and step into the traffic together, which seems like a really simplistic term, but it's, it's the idea that we need to find our voice, be very selective of the words that we choose to get [00:05:00] the impact and the power we need But also underscore that with the idea that we've got to get over being the victim.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Dr. Wright, when you, you talk about brave, right, specifically in the political and educational climate that we're living today, we're seeing leaders, you know, being apprehensive on specific decisions or even articulating their voice about what is right, right? Because when we talk about what is right, not W-R-I-G-H-T, but what is right, R-I-G-H-T, um, doc, is we have to be able to speak up.

Michael Conner: We have to have this voice. We always talk about within our learning environments, within the pedagogical logic model of ensuring that their student voice within the concepts that they're learning with how they're able to articulate their skills and competencies with [00:06:00] various concepts. We have to be able to eliminate...

Michael Conner: not eliminate, but we have to be able to ensure that that voice is there for our leaders as well. Yes, you know, we're seeing a lot of leaders kind of taking a step back because we know what that political climate does when we speak about women specifically as well, but how do we now, and I think this has become an essential question that we continue to curate, is how do we now ensure that we can be able to speak up and ensure that when we speak up, that there's not gonna have this repercussion of the political landscape, the educational landscape pushing back on us, where we're finding this huge churn in the superintendent role because they are standing on what is right.

Michael Conner: So I, I, I agree, right? We have to be able to be brave, but you said this phrase that really resonates with me, strength in numbers, and I think that, yeah, we have to [00:07:00] find, you know, where those numbers are even across the country to build that coalition, that guiding coalition on what is right in education and not be, and ensure that our voice is influential to the level of impact so that we can continue this trajectory of really moving education in a direction that it needs to go, to go in.

Dr. Donna Wright: And Michael, with that, it's one of those things that goes back to something very, you know, simple too as far as our purpose and our why. I could have defined this much easier five to six years ago, and then, you know, and we'll, we'll get into this later with some of the things that you're going to be asking, but such a seismic shift in our culture, our beliefs, things that we hold dear, and you're also seeing something as, with a division even between women.

Dr. Donna Wright: Women don't always support women 

Michael Conner: We're gonna unpack that because Dr. Wright, you've seen so, so much. But I, I mean, what I mean by you've seen so much, over [00:08:00] 40 years within education. That right there, Dr. Wright, is just astonishing. You have seen everything. But what really captivated me was, Dr. Wright, when you won Superintendent of the Year for the state of Tennessee in 2020, right in the midst of COVID, okay?

Michael Conner: So I'm like, that's a double hats off because I was a superintendent during COVID and that was not fun, Dr. Wright. But how has leadership shifted from the ti- the time sequence of what I like to say this ecological model within education that we have three different phases: the BC stage of education, before COVID-19; the DC stage of education, during COVID; and then now what we're living in is the AC stage of education, which is after COVID-19.

Dr. Donna Wright: And you know, a- and I love the way you framed that because, you know, th- we, we, I think as educators we've talked about as far as pre-pandemic, pandemic, post-pandemic. I kind of like the [00:09:00] phrasing that, you know, as, as you put it, because if you go back to particularly that before COVID or the idea of where we were, and that, you know, again, you, you, you sort of benchmark it prior to 2020, and it's one that we were all about school improvement, stability within the district, making those academic achievement gains, showing growth.

Dr. Donna Wright: I mean, it was one things that, you know, there was just the stability of prior to. But also you s- you saw the emphasis on instructional leadership, not management, but instructional leadership. And you know, again, you as a former superintendent, you remember that we sort of cultivated that instead someone managing people, but the idea that you're also an academic leader as well, particularly focusing on instruction.

Dr. Donna Wright: We were in the midst of accountability systems, many of them not making sense of what we were trying to do when we knew that, you know, our [00:10:00] youngsters didn't come to us in prepared or ready or even, you know, able to function in a, a function in a traditional school setting. But the thing is that we made that work because the idea was that to focus on the youngster and to make sure that it wasn't just about academics as far as achievement, but also to look to see how we could grow that youngster from year to year.

Dr. Donna Wright: So again, stability, calendars, Carnegie units, all those things that we knew, a system that had existed well beyond 100 years. And then COVID DC. And just to frame it in context, I am located right outside Nashville, Tennessee. In February, I'd been in San Diego being recognized as the Tennessee Superintendent of the Year, along with my colleagues from 49 other states.

Dr. Donna Wright: And when we came into San Diego, [00:11:00] the driver that was bringing us in pointed out a, a big s- cruise ship that was out there in the bay and said, "You know, they're not letting it in. There's some kind of illness or something, and they're not gonna let them disembark until they figure out what it was." Well, we found out later it was already the beginning of COVID.

Dr. Donna Wright: I come back to Nashville, Tennessee, and on March the 3rd, we had a devastating F3 tornado that came out of the west and literally blew up two of my schools, an elementary and a middle school, and bypassed a third one on down. And had it occurred 10 hours earlier, there would've been 2,500 staff and faculty on those two campuses.

Dr. Donna Wright: Two weeks later, March 16th, COVID hit. And so you talk about a sense of, you know, catastrophic events with no blueprint to sort of help guide in how you would work through that. And this was a time that we literally became [00:12:00] experts in crisis management, but we weren't trained for it. When I, and when I talk about leadership, I don't care from the East Coast to West Coast, colleagues will share the same story.

Dr. Donna Wright: And the idea that how do you not only navigate through that, but the idea that we still have two months of school left. But the government, state and federal, said, "No, we are not going to congregate. We're going to close." And parents were looking at us, communities were looking at us as far as, "Okay, what kind of guidance are you going to give?"

Dr. Donna Wright: There's, again, there was no manual for this. And so everything's changes as far as leadership and, and digging deep, and this is one that we didn't even know what was going to be the length, the time, the framework and everything. And so communication, if you weren't a good communicator, you became a good communicator.

Dr. Donna Wright: Because even in s- small rural areas to large urban districts, the school district became the voice. [00:13:00] And the idea that, you know, we can't tell you that when we're going to be back to school, but we're going to figure out how to get through this. Many of us, unbeknownst that we would be looking at something this catastrophic, had moved to a one-to-one system several years before.

Dr. Donna Wright: There were others that were in the process of building or trying to find the funding. And then you had other districts that were just lucky and fortunate to have textbooks. And so right there was going to be

Dr. Donna Wright: Something that, again, we could not forecast as far as the inequities that we were going to see built into a system that was operational for 100 years. And you still, but the haves and the have-nots became very, very evident in the midst of COVID because some of us could set up virtual schools immediately.

Dr. Donna Wright: Leadership determined as far as we don't know what it's gonna look like 'cause we've never done this before. Virtual schools are usually an alternative school, so what's [00:14:00] it gonna look like, particularly with the youngest of our children? Two, finding out that many of our... In fact, it was s- the, the statistics were alarming, that we assumed everyone had internet connection because they all had a phone.

Dr. Donna Wright: Well, they didn't. The school districts were obligated to figure that out. Many of us were, you know, able just creating schools that were became hotspots. But you could go 50 miles up the road and find out that there's no opportunity whatsoever, and you saw the discrepancies again from state to state. So you, you're looking at communication, you're looking at crisis management, you're looking at figuring out how to use technology even when you did not have the capabilities of making it work.

Dr. Donna Wright: And then the thing that I guess became the most evident among my colleagues was the equity gaps that we knew there were equity gaps because, but now it's deeper, wider, and more evident. [00:15:00] And we saw it in everything from, I guess, access, but also food insecurity. Oh my goodness. We moved into those summer months and, you know, what are we gonna do?

Dr. Donna Wright: 'Cause we know that, you know, with, you know, access to food, even whether it's the grocery store, but those kids that were dependent on the school district, even in the summertime, we had to figure it out. Many districts across the state, we-- It's not that we broke the law, but we had to navigate how to get around how we could serve kids regardless of their status as far as income and...

Dr. Donna Wright: But we did it because we had to meet that. And then the big piece that as we moved in trying to figure out how we would return to school was mental health services for students and faculty, and we weren't equipped for that. But it was a responsibility, again, going back and looking at [00:16:00] the conversations that many of our colleagues, um, had as far as how do we make this work because we had teachers saying, "I'm gonna remain home.

Dr. Donna Wright: I will teach from home. I'm not coming back into school until you can tell me it is safe." Parents saying, "Get our kids back into school now." "Well, we don't have staff." "I don't care how you do it, our kids need to be in school." Got it. So there were so many decisions, so many things that we didn't have answers to.

Dr. Donna Wright: We were navigating new ground. We were being threatened with lawsuits for things that we were not in charge of, nor could we control. And I think when I look back at that time, everything was a day-to-day decision because what might've been predictable the next day, we couldn't make it happen. And so many of us, as far as we tried to create schedules where we could do a hybrid model and reduce the number.

Dr. Donna Wright: We had- when kids came back in, we had to figure [00:17:00] out proximity. We had to sit there, this child's sick, then we've got to make sure that we make a contact to let the other parents know that we have illness in the classroom. We had teachers wanting to come in space suits to protect themselves I mean, and, and it seems so absurd now, but again, it's nothing that it didn't matter your leadership training or your leadership prep.

Dr. Donna Wright: Many times it was getting on a late night call with each other and talking to a colleague in Oregon, "What are you doing? How are you doing it? How can I help you because you've already helped me?" And we would find ourselves trying to, you know, where's, where's a practice that's working? What are the outcomes?

Dr. Donna Wright: But the thing that we also found, Michael, that what might have happened and worked well in Missouri was not going to work well in North Carolina. So there was not the connections other than sit there and share the best we could, and the idea that we never saw this as being the breeding ground of what we were going to be facing when we [00:18:00] came out of the other end because the argument over masks.

Dr. Donna Wright: "We're not going to wear a mask. You can't make us wear a mask." "No, we can't make you wear a mask, but you know what? You're going to be, you know, exposed." "Make no mistake, it's all a hoax." We became, I guess, the, the, the sort of the epicenter of much of what we would see, you know, move across the country. The idea, the vaccines.

Dr. Donna Wright: When we had the opportunity, and this happened with all the districts, that we could vaccinate our teachers. "Well, how do you know it's safe? Why would you do this? Why, why are you, you know, further exposing..." And you had camps that were taking position on that. Again, not knowing that this would be the thing that we would say, you know, it spread across the country.

Dr. Donna Wright: And then it also came down to curriculum debates because those that we, of us that were able to provide not only a virtual setting or a hybrid setting where they would be in the classroom but also be... Parents started checking [00:19:00] online to see what we were doing, and there became a debate, which again, was a, the first step to what we were going to experience when we all came back to school after COVID had run its course.

Dr. Donna Wright: And so what we learned during COVID was that we had far more tools and ingenuity and inventiveness that we never would've even contemplated But we also found that we also had a level to which we met exhaustion, fatigue. What if ... And a lot of the what ifs drove a lot of the conversations as far as what if we've made a mistake?

Dr. Donna Wright: What if we could've returned to school? What if? What if? Well, those decisions were taken out of our hands, and much of it was that we had to work within the confines of what we were delivered and what, and w- and what we knew that we could go through. [00:20:00] And, and depend on local governments telling us, "Can we return yet?

Dr. Donna Wright: Can we not return? What are we going to do?" And then the health departments keep coming in conflict with local governments saying that, "No, you still have to do proximity, facings. They, you have to wear the masks." And it went on and on. And so we became, where we were once the beloved center of any community, in some places we became the enemy.

Dr. Donna Wright: And it plays out when we get to AC, after COVID. And, and so the thing that we, you know, we learned that we had, we became far more adaptive. We found out that we were more resilient than maybe we had to because everything before was rigid. And I mean, it was mapped out for us, and this is, you know, this, whether it's the State Department or the federal government, we knew what we had to do.

Dr. Donna Wright: We knew that we had to have 180 days of instructional time and teachers had to have 200 days of contract time, and things were [00:21:00] spelled out. When we come back, we have to sit back and think, what, what do we do? Particularly not only for our students, but how are we gonna support our educators? But then it was also who's gonna support the leadership?

Dr. Donna Wright: Because we're the ones that finally became the lightning rod, uh, not only for from parents, from the community. Because for many places, the school was the, what made most communities viable. It was also an economic stability of that school district. As long as that school district was viable and, and healthy, we knew that there, you know, the economy, the jobs, everything was going to be fine because we would recover.

Dr. Donna Wright: And when we did not launch quickly enough, and particularly in those large urban areas where they were trying to just even retrieve kids, they became the, I guess the, as far as not only the comments as far as look what's [00:22:00] happened to the economy, people are losing their jobs, they've gotta have their kids in school, and all these pieces, and there was no solution that was acceptable to everyone.

Dr. Donna Wright: And so the big shift, I guess, was trying to adapt and recover, but also start thinking about how do we rebuild trust. That was big And how do we make sure that leadership doesn't reside here, but across in giving more autonomy to principals of their schools because no one would know better their community than that principal.

Dr. Donna Wright: And get, when I say autonomy, that they're going to have to do and present themselves in a different way, particularly not only helping families, but what is it that they need at this time to help not only get their kids back in school, but also support them because of childcare, particularly for our younger students.[00:23:00] 

Dr. Donna Wright: Many school districts across the country because the childcare daycare disappeared. So what can schools do to maybe offer a before school and after school care at sites so parents would have a place so they could get back to work? And so those are things that we never would've even considered or even entertained, but it was one of those things we had to build the, build the trust back.

Dr. Donna Wright: We had to sit there and rebuild culture too. And, and then the idea that how do you create systems that are going to be sustainable should we ever incur another crisis like this? Because- It's not really been addressed, but there's been many school districts that have not really completely recovered. And you're seeing it declining enrollment, and, and everyone's addressing it as, you know, you know, the drop in birth rate.

Dr. Donna Wright: Well, what it is [00:24:00] that part of that trust trying to build capacity, trying to restore what is the purpose, particularly in public school systems. We see the increase of voucher systems We see the increase of charter schools, and we saw an exponential increase in homeschooling across the nation. 

Michael Conner: And I just want to just interject because you, you, you made such a, a resonating point when you're talking about the AC stage, and I always like to say the residuals of it, right?

Michael Conner: The correlations of what we're seeing now because of the DC stage of education. But specifically when we talk about the client and enrollment, the voucher systems, charter networks, the expansion of that, the, the exponential increase in homeschooling. Doc- Dr. Wright, I've been talking with leaders, superintendents across the country, and I [00:25:00] said that this is the first time that the public sector, public education essentially has to take a mindset or a mind frame around what I call market-based innovation and market-based reform, where we are going to have to basically sell our business model and the innovative dimensions and elements of it because we are competing, our public education is competing against a variety of different entities within the ecosystem.

Michael Conner: That in the BC stage of education, the first choice was always the neighborhood school, the, the, the neighborhood public school within the community. Now we're having all of these disruptive forces within the ecosystem that public education can ha- can, can continue this precipitous or draconian slide in enrollment because of, not just because of birth rates, but because of the ample choices that families have.

Michael Conner: So [00:26:00] I, I just want to expand on that a little, Dr. Wright. How could now basically superintendents, public education leaders basically now change this mindset where we have to be able to sell our model in order to keep our students, or matter of fact, in order to keep or to increase our enrollments? 

Dr. Donna Wright: We've allowed what I call the public dismantling of public education as far as finding ways to discredit and create issues that really are, you know, they might be something that's happening in small pockets around the country, but the focus being that it's public schools have allowed it.

Dr. Donna Wright: And so that message, and again, this is one that superintendents right now are taking And, and going with it because if they don't speak up, no one else is speaking up on their behalf. And everything as far as that, again, 90% of our children in this country are [00:27:00] educated in a public system. And the idea that, you know, we're not afraid of competition, but let's, let's make the ground rules the same as far as what we're competing against.

Dr. Donna Wright: And, and, and that's been something that we've also seen with vouchers. And again, you know, it doesn't matter what, as far as forget the politics in it, but the idea that if you're taking public tax dollars to support private education at the expense of public education, let's make the ground rules the same.

Dr. Donna Wright: And it goes back to accountability. Because the, again, the thing that's being pers- you know, that's being placed out there is the idea that public cannot compete with private because they get better outcomes. Well, we don't know that. They're not held accountable by the same standards that public education...

Dr. Donna Wright: And so you're seeing a lot of leadership as far as we need to speak up. We, we need to speak up because our, our students are still performing at a rate that's made very public that you can see. And do we still have issues? Absolutely. But do we have support systems to go in and [00:28:00] help those kids and, and to make sure that they're going to be successful?

Dr. Donna Wright: Do we have certified credentialed teachers? Yes, for the most part, and it's getting harder. But, you know, all those pieces that build that public system, and we've got to figure out how we can go back and build the trust that we saw really much earlier than even before, uh, the advent of COVID. Because we were already seeing this dismantling.

Dr. Donna Wright: But what we did, we gave credence to the faults of public education during COVID, and then we amplified it after COVID. And you saw it with the politicization as far as what happened, as far as even taking divisions between parties and looking at support. And the criticisms as far as, you know, everything from what we're allowing in sports to what we're, you, we, we've taken God out of our s- I can go through a whole litany of things.

Dr. Donna Wright: And so what you're seeing now that where we didn't really market and where we really didn't compete, [00:29:00] we're doing so now. And you're seeing some of the large urban districts that are not only going out and meeting in communities to, you know, have parents come in and look, be very transparent. Come and see.

Dr. Donna Wright: You, do we still have faults? Absolutely. But our mission is to serve students 

Michael Conner: Yeah, and then Dr. Wright, I, I, I love how you were able to create that vertical conceptualization of what we went through in education from the BC stage to where we're at today. Yes, you know, in the BC stage, I always talked about, you know, instructional leadership when we talk about a school improvement, aligning systems, and really going in depth to really create those sustainable systems where we wanted to scale them.

Michael Conner: You know, those conversations still happen, but just the dynamic of where we're at today in the AC stage of education, you know, when we're talking about now how [00:30:00] do we truly democratize AI within our classrooms and even from a systems level. You know, technology, you know, some people still carry that notion from the DC stage of education that emergency based instruction is still the same thing with the disruptive technologies that we're using today.

Michael Conner: No, I alwa- I wanna clear that, I wanna clarify that misnomer now on VFE. Emergency based instruction in the DC stage of education does not quantify for online instruction using technology and all that. But one thing you've really hit upon a point is this level of competition now that we're seeing, and it's a much different narrative with that.

Michael Conner: But now doctor, Dr. Wright, this is kind of like an underscoring subset to your answer that you provided, uh, within the last question, is that now when we look at this time ecological sequence, BC, DC, and AC stage, now I want you to shift for [00:31:00] or, or shift to this aspect of women in leadership, right? And we have seen, uh, and you have even said it now, we've seen this dimension change specifically in the AC stage of education right now.

Michael Conner: But you're leading the AASA National Women's Leadership Consortium to support these leaders. Now, we know in the BC stage, DC, AC stage, small percentile of women in executive leadership roles. I don't know the exact metrics. You probably have it, but again, to me it's still underrepresented, right? And but, but what is that, Dr.

Michael Conner: Wright, that macro level bottleneck that is truly inhibiting representation specifically at the superintendent role, chief academic officer, at the state level, the SEA, what is that inhibiting bottleneck? Is it more of a pipeline issue? Is it more of a promotion issue? [00:32:00] Is it a board issue? Is it persistence?

Michael Conner: But from your perspective, what is it? 

Dr. Donna Wright: Well, it, I, I love the way you put those three Ps in there as far as looking at pipeline promotion or even persistence. I mean, the... And, and those, those are symptoms. I mean, and that's something that I talk about even in graduate classes that I, that I teach, that again, those are the symptoms because what it really leads to, and, and I'm gonna use the thing as far as that bottleneck that you refer to, it's the system itself that's set up.

Dr. Donna Wright: And, and it again, it's not one, Michael, that's it's about bashing, you know, the males or it, it, it's just, it's the system, and that we've allowed it to continue. You know, you asked for some statistics earlier as far as, you know, and it goes along to that pipeline that, you know, women are present, but they're not propelled.

Dr. Donna Wright: Propelled being that they're not being pushed through that pipeline to go into those leadership positions to the extent that we would think so. [00:33:00] And when you look at there's 14- a little over 14,000 public school districts across the country, and in a profession that is heavily dominated by women, you would think that you would see a correlation there.

Dr. Donna Wright: But you, you were asking about statistics. You know, 76% of the workforce, teacher workforce are women, 76%. And 54% of those positions as principals are held by women. And primarily you see most of the women in the elementary and middle school. Yet only 27%, not quite 30% of superintendents nationwide is that position held by women.

Dr. Donna Wright: So again, when you look at that, it's pipeline to use I guess the metaphor as far as it's clogged Because it's one of those things [00:34:00] as far as that they are not pushed through or are encouraged to the same extent as what you're going to see for the men. You're seeing leadership preparation programs in just about every state has some piece of that, particularly in your college of education programs that still reflect male leadership archetypes.

Dr. Donna Wright: I mean, it's just the way it is. 

Michael Conner: To my audience, the numbers or the metrics that Dr. Wright provided to you, listen to this, and this is what we talk about, and I'm gonna use the word inequities. If 76% of the education workforce is represented by women and only 27% are sitting superintendents or executive leaders, that means that 24% of the education workforce represent men, and 73% are sitting in the seat as superintendents.

Michael Conner: Now, let, let's, let's think about this, and it, we don't have to be statisticians [00:35:00] or data scientists to really look at the egregious discrepancies of what we're seeing within those two metric lines. 76% represent women in education, but only 27% are superintendents and executive leaders, while men represent 24% of the ecosystem, but yet 73% of them are superintendents or executive leaders.

Michael Conner: I just wanted to bring those metrics out to really concretize discrepancies, the inequities that we see when it comes to women in leadership. Go right ahead, Dr. Wright. 

Dr. Donna Wright: No, and I just, you know... And the thing is, you know, women are less likely to be sponsored as you would see men. The same thing, you're gonna see women are, you know, I call it the tapping method as far as someone, you know, that will sit there and say, "You know what?

Dr. Donna Wright: You really need to consider leadership because you just have, [00:36:00] you know, all the dynamics, all, you know- You'll see that far more often with men unless there is a conscious effort within a district as far as that we are going to look at leadership among women and just see how we can elevate that. And the idea of tapping is powerful.

Dr. Donna Wright: And boards, school boards are less often to equate readiness to be a superintendent for a female as they would for a man. It's just the dynamics. And, and we're seeing that even more pronounced after COVID than we saw before, which is something that might be a good dissertation topic for individuals.

Dr. Donna Wright: They'll really look at what's happening in that arena right now. And, you know, and I 

Michael Conner: think it's also- 

Dr. Donna Wright: And I 

Michael Conner: think, Dr. Wright, my, my, my research question f- if we're talk- if we're gonna take a dissertation approach would be, how do we or to what degree can we end the boys club in education? I'll say it for you.

Michael Conner: I'll say it. We gotta end the boys club. 

Dr. Donna Wright: No, I'll [00:37:00] say, I'll say it. And, and I say, I say it with a smile on my face, Michael, because my, my mentors, those that pro- really promoted me, were men. I was very, very fortunate because again, I s- I was s- I started back in the early '80s, and it was the men that saw leadership in me, and it was not that the women didn't s- but it wasn't in their sphere of not only influence, but their thinking that, you know, "She's one of us."

Dr. Donna Wright: And I did not see that in myself, and I was always, always amazed that someone saw that, that I had that, I guess, predisposition and that they could see me as a high school principal at a time that when I was a high school principal in the '90s, there was 236 secondary schools, high schools in the state of Tennessee.

Dr. Donna Wright: I was one of 12 women that led a large comprehensive urban high school [00:38:00] And they were afraid I was gonna get hurt. Uh, that, and that was what the superintendent told me at the time. He said, "I don't know. I'm, I'm really afraid you're gonna get hurt." No. No, no, no. It's just, you know, it wasn't gonna happen. I grew up with three brothers.

Dr. Donna Wright: I had ... It wasn't gonna happen. But the th- the thing is that when we look at even promotion, women are evaluated differently. So there's your, you know, part of that pipeline thing. And, you know, there's higher scrutiny, particularly in interviews. I've watched it. I've witnessed it. I've experienced it myself.

Dr. Donna Wright: As far as you're just, as far as there's higher scrutiny, there's different expectations. With communication, when you look at how you work with others. I, I, I was ... I can remember one time, and it- it's usually from other females. Females are more, far more critical of others or each other than they are. And I, I put that out there too, and, and I can watch people where they're like, "Oh, I can't believe she just [00:39:00] said that."

Dr. Donna Wright: Well, I'm going to say it. We don't support each other the way men support each other. That's a problem. But the idea that I smile too much, that I laugh too much, and that was a criticism Well, that's just who I am. But I've seen that other women experience that same thing, that they were just, you know, too relaxed, too engaging, and those were criticisms.

Dr. Donna Wright: But again, different expectations, but then you also have a bias in board perceptions as far as when, again, they only employ one person, and that's the superintendent, and how they evaluate as far as strength, making decisions, being decisive, being able to, you know, what the word is, executive presence And it's what I always laugh when I tell some of my, the, the women in my leadership groups, I said, "A man can walk into the meeting with a polo shirt and dress slacks, that's fine.

Dr. Donna Wright: But let a woman [00:40:00] come in the same with anything less than a suit or a nice dress, and the criticism emerges." And everyone laughs, but they realize it's the truth. And so you have that, and then, you know, the thing is that the persistence piece, women exit the field at a much higher rate than men do. And part of it, and a- again, it's the nature of the sexes as far as that usually when you look at family dynamics, wherever the husband, spouse, if there is a change in jobs or location or promotion or whatever, the family follows Where you do not see that same dynamic usually, majority of time with women, that they are, for lack of a better term, landlocked.

Dr. Donna Wright: And, and again, the, the, the, the dynamics of choice. So you're going to see a change there as far as that, that [00:41:00] persistence rate has to be measured a little differently. And the idea though that goes with that, women are non-renewed at a higher rate than men. We've really experienced it this last school year across the nation.

Dr. Donna Wright: They're terminated more often without cause. You know, that's a b- that's an important world, word in, in that field. You've been there, you understand. Pushed out for reasons unrelated to performance. You just aren't a good fit. You just aren't what we're looking for. Let's see what, if we can find something else for you to do if you want to remain.

Dr. Donna Wright: Those kind of conversations take place. Penalized for conflict, even when they're not the ones that created it. Particularly on a board. Expected to absorb more emotional labor than the man, because people perceive that as being the nature of women. And then more likely to face gendered criticism from boards or even communities.[00:42:00] 

Dr. Donna Wright: Communities can be vicious with a female leader And again, when you see those things that when you look at those three pieces, you know, as far as the pipeline, the promotion, the persistence, the thing is that they're just the symptoms of a system that still continues. 

Michael Conner: Absolutely. And, and Doc- Dr. Wright, I, I love how you articulate that because I always say that, you know, in order for us to really get to the root cause, the core of the issues, we have to move beyond the symptom level of analysis and really go in depth to identifying what are those root causes and addressing those problem practices that live within that as well.

Michael Conner: And you talk, you... what you stated is absolutely correct, that we're only talk about, we're only talking about topical issues, the surface level issues, but not really getting in depth with regards to [00:43:00] changing how the system is operationalized so that we can be able to have the changes within the outputs in itself.

Michael Conner: But you started to allude to some boards, and I really wanna just kinda underpin that because we've seen the national climate with regards to boards change exponentially. Um, Dr. Wright, painstakingly there has been evidence that boards, you know, just the, the, they're different, just to put it and to contextualize it in a very nice way.

Michael Conner: But based on what you see nationally with regards to governance, with regards to boards, with regards to LEAs and how active they have become now, what is this new political and governance climate, and how could we have the sustainability factor with superintendents? Moreover, add in this additional information with regards to women who are in the superintendent role.[00:44:00] 

Michael Conner: How do we make sure their tenure is longstanding? 

Dr. Donna Wright: And again, you know, and I have to put context to that if you look at the national average as far as the tenure for sup- schools, sitting superintendents, two and a half years. Okay, so I mean, so male, female, so you have to look at in that perspective as well.

Dr. Donna Wright: And I say this because I'm one, almost believe I'm a historian by nature because I always look to the past to see and then look at the present and try my best to build a forecast to what it might possibly look like. But where we have ended, where we're, we are landing right now when you look at the political divisions, and, uh, there's no other word to use, Michael, political divisions that are right now more or less holding school boards hostage.

Dr. Donna Wright: And when I say hostage, that m- there's still at that decision as far as whether they're elected or appointed positions. You can see those dynamics anywhere you go in the country [00:45:00] right now. And you're seeing everything from people that are, uh, sitting on school boards that have no children or grandchildren in the system, have never had children or grandchildren in the system, but they're going to sit on the board because they don't like the direction or they don't like, you know, how much, uh, as far as that they're taking up 80% of the local, uh, taxpayer dollars for a system that doesn't work.

Dr. Donna Wright: And, you know, we can go i- with a whole, you know, litany of things that they have listed out. And, and again, I don't care if you're sitting in Florida, Texas, Tennessee, California, you can almost read the script that we've all been watching and somewhat following during COVID and it's still there. So you have that, but what gives me hope and what I'm seeing right now that particularly this year we started seeing those boards flip because people [00:46:00] that were quiet and watching and just like, you know, "This too shall pass," and you know, and, and it, it became concerning, I think, to the extent that when we look at the states that have a voucher component, and I, I look at Arizona, and Arizona probably right now as far as it's leading that, they are in a state deficit in their budget that is absolutely outrageous because of what they expended on vouchers, charters, and home schools at the expense of their public system.

Dr. Donna Wright: And now boards are getting outraged. Communities are getting outraged. Well, we're seeing that, and the idea that the questions being asked among boards, "What happens if we do not have a system of education that serves the community?" Not the country, but serves the community. Because we know, and this is something Gallup Poll has told us for years, "What do you think [00:47:00] about the public school system?"

Dr. Donna Wright: "Oh, it's going to hell in a hand basket." They've said that for over 50 years. "Well, tell us about your school." "Well, oh, my school's the exception. My school's the exception. It does really well." Well, we are finding that, and boards are seeing that too. There is still great support, and so they're having to shift their thinking from where they came in as far as public schools were a failing enterprise, public schools are dumbing down our kids, they're indoctrinating our children, they are setting it up as far as that the, the, the whole transgender issue.

Dr. Donna Wright: I mean, I could go on with all these things with bulleted scripts that were being repeated all over the country, and everyone was quiet. This year- Boards are flipping. That gives me great hope because the idea that people are starting to think, "What if we don't have a strong public system of education?"

Dr. Donna Wright: And as I heard [00:48:00] one individual in another state stand in front of a board because I have colleagues that'll say, "Will you watch my board meeting tonight?" And I do. And they stood up and said, "There is no other industrialized nation in the world that has done to their public system of education as what we're doing in this country."

Dr. Donna Wright: Whoa. 

Dr. Donna Wright: That resonated. That resonated. And the idea that, yes, it does take up 75 to 80% of the local funds as far as to run a school district, but we're also talking about that all the services that a public system provides, it's not just for the students, it's also for families. And so the viability of that public system is going to be the, what you're going to see is the economic vitality, viability of that community as well.

Dr. Donna Wright: When people are s- stepping back, they're still angry, and I don't know that it's still as much anger that is directed at the school districts and [00:49:00] the leadership as much as that, "Why is this happening?" And the other thing that's happening right now, and I would be... I have to address this because it's something that we're seeing and we don't know anywhere in the country, our children that were in pre-K, kindergarten, first, second, and third grade during COVID, EC, are now sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth graders in school.

Dr. Donna Wright: And we are seeing issues, what I refer to, and I said, let's not talk about missed opportunities because when kids came back to school, in some places in the country, Michael, they were out school, high school a year. Some were out for two years, and I'm saying being in a physical classroom. And so when you look at that third, fourth, and fifth grade, and you know this very well, those are foundational skill setting years.[00:50:00] 

Dr. Donna Wright: And many districts, and it, you don't, you don't throw rocks because it's one of those things they were just happy to get kids back into school where we should have stopped, assessed what did we miss, particularly with reading, literacy, and foundational skills in mathematics And what we did, wherever kids came back in, they had nothing to do with ability, they just didn't have the opportunity.

Dr. Donna Wright: And so now those kids have transitioned into middle school, and we've got the first group that's transitioned into ninth grade this year, and the casualties are there. And some other things. What are we gonna do to address that? Forget required testing and accountability. What can we do to go back and rebuild those skills?

Dr. Donna Wright: Because, and you know this too, Michael, there's not a child out there that doesn't want to be a good reader and also know how to do their multiplication tables, and the idea that the operational skills for multiplication, division of [00:51:00] fractions, the precursor to algebra. And we've got a generation of kids right now that are missing skills, and then this other piece that's coming out that's a topic of conversation from coast to coast is entering kindergarten students that do not know how to socialize, to work in, you know, with others, to socialize with their, their peers, how to initiate play, and everyone's sort of like, "What happened?

Dr. Donna Wright: What happened?" Well, this is another casualty of what we saw with the pandemic. And so all these pieces now have come together and everyone's starting to recognize it with what do we do? And I think that has changed the shift because the only entity that can address it and figure it out is going to be your public system of education.

Dr. Donna Wright: And the leaders [00:52:00] It'll take bravery and courage for the, the right words That we recognize it, we're addressing it, and we might have to look at what we do. It d- it's not about slowing it down this end, but what is it that we can support, undergird, build? We don't teach literacy or reading when you get into secondary, but you know what?

Dr. Donna Wright: We might need to, and we've got solutions. Address it. If we don't know the operational dynamics as far as multiplication and division of fractions or looking at that precursor when we start substituting, uh, as the kids call it, letters, what is the proper terminology so they can function in mathematics.

Dr. Donna Wright: And take the pressure off that it's not a matter of being a failure, but we're all gonna refresh, and maybe we need a reset button, and I'm borrowing that from a colleague because he's made the decision we're going to reset. We have to if we're going to save our children. 

Michael Conner: [00:53:00] Absolutely. And Dr. Wright, y- you m- you make a great point because, again, referencing back to that ecological sequence of time, i.e.

Michael Conner: BC stage, DC stage, and AC stage, this is one of the residuals when we talk about governance from the DC stage that moved into the AC stage seamlessly. I, I, I, I loved how y- you said it was missed op- opportunities, and that you're seeing across the country boards flipping, where now we can close that specific opportunity gap that we missed from the DC stage into the AC stage.

Michael Conner: Specifically when you talk about the, today's kindergarten students, right? With today's fifth grade students matriculating into sixth grade or already sixth grade now 'cause we're in the can't believe summer's over, we're in the 26, 20 academic year, including my son who is, was a part of that cohort in ninth grade.[00:54:00] 

Michael Conner: And we are definitely seeing the correlations or causality, not specifically looking at it from a metric standpoint, but the correlations and qua- and causality of the ramifications from that. But I, I, I really feel that there is this opportunity now as you're talking about really addressing those missed opportunities within the opportunity gap as, as I stated.

Michael Conner: I remember y- you, as you were, a- a- as you were presenting your, your answer or alluding to some of these key resonating facts, I was going back to a conversation I had with Dr. Steven Joel and former superintendent of Lincoln, Nebraska. Shout out to- 

Dr. Donna Wright: Good friend of mine ... 

Michael Conner: Oh, oh, I, I, I love Doc. Doc was, he was actually my mentor within the AASA urban- We 

Dr. Donna Wright: go, we go way back 

Michael Conner: I love Dr.

Michael Conner: Joel, and I remember this was a, a couple years ago and I said, "Doc, when do you think all this will return?" Return back to a quote, unquote, and I said, "Normal," right? I was [00:55:00] like, and we can be able to Have this intellectual banter about what normal is, but just for the sake of this conversation, when do you think everything's gonna go back to normal?

Michael Conner: And he said between five to seven years. And we're at that kind of like that year five, six where he forecasted where as you're just kind of underscoring it saying that now we're actually leading towards addressing those opportunities. So, and, and again, you're absolutely right with literacy, with math.

Michael Conner: We, we, I think we have to now redefine what accountability looks like in the AC stage of education. We have to redefine or modernize what it looks like for the definition of the school experience, the learning experience for our students. Moreover, we're gonna have to have this conversation because not, and not too long from now, I'd say within the next three years, we're gonna be welcoming a, a new cohort of students [00:56:00] into the PK-12 continuum, which is Generation Beta, and their nicknames are the quantum thinkers, where now they're just going to, right, they're really gonna redefine and set what this 22nd century look like when we move into education.

Michael Conner: But Dr. Wright, the last question, and I want you... I'm only gonna limit you to three words. I don't know if I can, Dr. Wright, but I am going to attempt. I u- I usually fa- I usually fail when it comes to this question, but what three words do you want our audience to leave with regarding leadership for AC 2035, a vision for the future?

Dr. Donna Wright: I remember when you, you, you posed that as far as the three words, and, and it's one that, um, I guess, and I'm, I'm trying to, you know, focus on the idea that when you're even looking at 2035, and, you know, and, and again, and we've always had these broad [00:57:00] goals as far as when you... And I, you remember Y2K? You remember that?

Dr. Donna Wright: Okay. And it was gonna be the end of the world. Do you remember that as far as how we w- Okay. And so my mind flashed back to that because everyone saw that as the, the, the doomsday as far as the computers would shut down, everything would not reset and everything. And so what we have seen since that point to where we are as far as in, in, you know, naming all these new generations, things have happened so rapidly now that we really, it's almost like, okay, what generation are we in?

Dr. Donna Wright: And so when I, I started thinking about, okay, what would be my three words, and it's one that adaptive, and we learned that during DC. Being adaptive and the idea that being able to make, you know, decisions and being able to be comfortable with what I call ambiguity because we're not sure. It might change tomorrow.

Dr. Donna Wright: And the idea that without resilience when things are [00:58:00] difficult or we don't understand and can make sense, so it's, uh, being adaptive. And the second one, and I had to play with this one in my mind because I've been keeping up with much of what's being going on with anthrop- I, I can't even remember the name of the company.

Dr. Donna Wright: Anthropic or whatever. Yeah, anthropic. And what's happening with AI and the evolutions going there is ethical. That's my second word is ethical because the thing is that if we're going to be defined by what's happening with AI and, and automation and, and we're having to create guardrails for, you know, as far as data governance and, and what's being exposed and what happens if, you know, for example, right now we've got school districts that never thought about ransomware and they're being held hostage.

Dr. Donna Wright: That, that, that simply didn't happen five years ago, Michael. And so there's all these dynamics, but the thing that I keep coming back to, [00:59:00] ethics are gonna be really important and that's not something that you teach as much as you model and expect it. And the idea that particularly leadership's going to have to be anchored in what, what does doing the right thing mean?

Dr. Donna Wright: And then that third one is the one I love because I've always been on the edge of things as far as like what I had to do to get, to make sure that everything was gonna work for me to be on this podcast was being inventive because we don't even - And that's the beauty of this country, Michael. We just don't know the possibilities and you're going to have to allow and give credence to particularly our leaders as far as who not only can design, but design and not focus so much on management because we've always been managers.

Dr. Donna Wright: But what happens if we are given the opportunity that we [01:00:00] can recreate and redesign school? How we deliver it, how we exist within it. Why does everyone have to move by grade cohorts? Why, you know, sort of like what I went back to earlier, we already know that we have a problem. And what happens? And it's not going as far as that standards-based movement, but what happens if we are able to design school where it meets the need of the student and exposes them to things that, you know, right now, you know, everybody's worried about what are you gonna be when you grow up.

Dr. Donna Wright: We're still doing that nonsense. Well, we don't know. But exposure based on the leadership that not only are they adaptive, figure it out, do the right thing. It's about being ethical, but also being inventive. It's, and being given the autonomy as far as what's best for your community, what's best for your school, what's best for your teachers.

Dr. Donna Wright: We've got some really creative, great teachers that are being stymied because there's so many rules [01:01:00] and guidelines and, you know, parameters that we've put on them that they can't really entice students in thinking beyond, you know, the four walls of the classroom. So those are the words that give me hope, give me bearing.

Dr. Donna Wright: I'm too old to sit there and think about going in and, and reinventing, but I would, I would think that if they need, if they have a vacancy in a principal, in a high school somewhere, I wouldn't mind filling that. I would tell them at first I'll probably break all the rules, but it's okay. No child will be harmed and no teacher will be hurt.

Dr. Donna Wright: But let us just try and see what we can do, and I could guarantee you that we would create some excitement for some kids saying, "I wanna be there." 

Michael Conner: Absolutely. 

Dr. Donna Wright: Can you imagine a middle school? Oh my gosh. 

Michael Conner: Oh, the, look, look, Dr., Dr. Wright, the trans-adolescent learner, I always say they are in that stage at either confusion or identity where- 

Dr. Donna Wright: I would have them following me.

Dr. Donna Wright: I li- [01:02:00] I mean, it would, we would have the best time, and we would get the literacy and we'd get the math in, but we would really get the science in too. But I would have to give them the history of why we are here, and it, it would be so much fun. But that's what we need to build in leadership right now.

Dr. Donna Wright: It's about, it's more than just building capacity, but giving them as far as if you give them the three words Follow the guidelines, do what's best for kids, do what's best for your teachers. You wouldn't even have to worry about teacher retention because you would bring joy back into the classroom- 

Michael Conner: Well, 

Dr. Donna Wright: yeah

Dr. Donna Wright: because we've lost that. 

Michael Conner: Yeah. The joy, the joy a- and, and a good colleague of mine always said we have to bring the joy back into education. And the three words that you highlighted, adaptive, ethics, and inventive, it goes to what I call UNVICE. And this is the AC version of VUCA, as we know, which is volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous.

Michael Conner: But UNVICE, specifically in the AC stage, is [01:03:00] uncertain, volatility, uh, intersectionality, complexity, and exponential. You've 

Dr. Donna Wright: been in the same workshop I've been in, I can tell. Yes. 

Michael Conner: We think alike, Dr. Wright. Dr. Wright- See, 

Dr. Donna Wright: I see, I, I get excited about those things. I think of possibilities, and that's what we need to do is it's not only just bringing joy, but the idea that, you know, it's moving faster than we can keep up, but what are the possibilities?

Michael Conner: Yeah. L- a- and, and I love because o- one thing that you talked about was this H graded classrooms and the traditional letter grades, right? And within my 22nd century education model, I say that we have to move from graded progress to what I call now staged progress, where there's that level of autonomy where students have that agency and voice to be able to move through the stages based off of their demonstrated competency that defies traditional accountability measures and functionalities within that type of system, as we say.

Dr. Donna Wright: And Michael, you know, [01:04:00] coaches do it the best. Mm-hmm. They give their players the opportunity to do things over and to practice, practice, practice- 

Michael Conner: Absolutely ... 

Dr. Donna Wright: without penalty, and we don't do that for students. 

Michael Conner: Absolutely. And Dr. Wright, what we've also seen, too, in football, basketball, and baseball, the game has what?

Michael Conner: You said it, the first word back in the episode, evolved. Dr. Wright- 

Dr. Donna Wright: Evolved ... 

Dr. Donna Wright: it 

Dr. Donna Wright: evolved. And we can do that. Yeah. If someone would just get out of the way and let us do it. 

Michael Conner: Dr. Wright, I'm gonna make sure I'm b- I'm standing right next to you. We gonna do it together. But Dr. Wright, thank you for coming on Voices for Excellence.

Michael Conner: I am sure that a plethora of my, a plethora of my audience will wanna get in contact with you to expand on some of these, I like to say meta themes, or, or, or level of let's expand it up, these mega themes that you presented. How would they be able to get in touch with you? 

Dr. Donna Wright: As far as LinkedIn, as far as they can leave me a message.

Dr. Donna Wright: My email's [01:05:00] available. I, I mean, I respond to anyone that has an interest and a love for what we do and what we support, and that's, that's not only as far as just looking at, you know, leadership, but also as far as what can we do to not only preserve, but uplift public education in this country. That, that is, that is the thing that is my passion right now, and until they, you know, put me in the ground, and that, that, that's what d- that's what you will hear me say and where I will be up there in front of school boards every opportunity.

Dr. Donna Wright: Because if we don't support, uplift, and put our arms around our children, no one else will. And we've got to do that because they are, they are, you know, that old adage, they're our hope, they're our future. Yes, but you know what? We're not doing a very good job taking care 

Michael Conner: of them. There you go, Doc- Dr.

Michael Conner: Wright. I, I tell you, y- yes, yes, yes, and amen. Dr. Wright, thank you for coming- Thank you ... on VFE. A, this was a pleasure, and [01:06:00] then B, also on the board that we're gonna be serving on together, I cannot wait to really move the landscape and the needle for our students- Oh, 

Dr. Donna Wright: me too ... 

Michael Conner: across the country a- internationally.

Michael Conner: But Dr. Wright, thank you so much for coming on. I look forward to, yeah, we're gonna be meeting next week. I look forward to meeting with you next week. 

Dr. Donna Wright: Yeah, absolutely. This was good, and, and I hope I didn't go down too many rabbit trails, as we say in Tennessee, but you just hit, you hit some chords. 

Michael Conner: We, we, we, that's the purpose of Voices for Excellence.

Michael Conner: We want you to go down that rabbit chord and extend it. Well- 

Dr. Donna Wright: Well ... 

Michael Conner: you did 

Dr. Donna Wright: it, but- Yeah. So thank you 

Michael Conner: Thank you, Dr. Wright. And on that note, onward and upward, everybody. Have a great evening.