Dr. Rosa Isiah has served students in her community for 29 years. Currently, she serves as Director of Elementary Education, Equity, and Access in NLMUSD. Dr. Isiah is passionate about equity and social justice, multilingual Ed, leadership, and closing opportunity gaps for historically underserved students.
Dr. Michael Conner
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to another episode for Voices for Exercise. This is Dr. Michael Conner, the CEO and founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group and the host for the F E, And I am here with Dr. Perez. Isaiah And first, before we even get into Dr. Perez, Isaiah, I want to wish everybody a Happy Women’s History Month. And obviously, you know, in celebration for Women’s History Month, I wanted to get the biggest advocate right for women of being an advocate for equity and equity when it comes to context of ensuring our black and brown students are receiving the high quality instruction and the high quality systems that are coherent and aligned to their needs, but also equity that branches out in different variants, whether it be gender equity, whether it be equity that’s defined in different subgroups, whether it be black and brown students. We have one of the biggest advocates across the country, and this is my sister, I like to say from the West Coast, right 3000 miles away. But I sit my sister got the same vitality and strength in order to get this work done. And it is an absolute honor to have Dr. Rosa Perez, Isaiah, from the great state of California, where, yes, everybody in California pays the sun, the sunshine in Texas, always say it’s lunch time over here now, but it is morning over here. So I’m going to say good morning, Dr. Isiah. How are you?
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
I am doing wonderful, Especially after that introduction. I’m delighted to be here with you. It’s actually kind of chilly in L.A. right now. It’s probably 50 degrees outside or approaching 50. We’re just not used to that.
Dr. Michael Conner
Yeah, you know what, Dr. Isiah? It’s about 20 degrees over here, so I’ll take 50. I’ll be outside with my shorts on.
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
We can always… we always could spot the tourists.
Dr. Michael Conner
Because that would be me. That would be me. But I’ll just give you a brief background. Dr. Perez, Isaiah. Dr. Perez. Isaiah. She serves in many different roles from being a director of elementary education and whether it be one of the national speakers and consultant, you know, just across the country. And also she is a best selling author. We’re going to talk about her book in a little bit. But I want to get to the first question, Dr. Perez. Isaiah, and this is a fun question, right? But I like to bring this one question up because it unwraps explicitly, implicitly, who you are as a person. And I can’t wait for your response to this because I open up this question every single episode. But Dr. Perez-Isiah, when when individual stakeholders, leaders and just justice advocates across the country, when they hear you speak right about equity in education, about improving systems in the teaching and learning organization, oceans, or whether it just be how can I be a deep advocate? What song comes to mind if they’re coming to see Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah in action? What is that that equity song as when they hear you or see you is unwrapped an education and as a steadfast leader for equity?
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
Oh my gosh. So I can think of a couple, but depending on the mood, it’s either girl on fire by Alicia Alicia Keys or roar by Katy Perry. Respect by Aretha. I would say, you know, just depending on what we’re talking about. Yeah, but Girl on Fire definitely.
Dr. Michael Conner
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when I, when I Dr. as I say, when I heard you speak right and this was at house and it was you, it was Alessandro del Galvin. Dr. Maria Armstrong And I apologize for the fourth presenter. I don’t remember her name, but you know, when I was engaged in that session and it was empowering for me because the reason I attended, not only because of, you know, what you and several other of my sisters in this work that were on that panel, I wanted to become a better advocate. Right. And I really wanted to understand a lot of the core problems that, you know, we see gender inequities, whether it be in the ecosystem or whether it be externally out of the ecosystem, how I can become a better advocate just as an equity advocate for this gender and equity issue that we’re seeing. And when you bring up the song Girl on Fire, Roar and Respect, all of those mega themes were embedded in that session. But that is you and that is your work. But let’s take it back to the practitioner stage. We’ll go beyond, you know, the realms of the traditional teacher learning ecosystem. But I want to be able to have my listeners and my audience really experience your lens, right, the equity lens, as your role within the as a director of Elementary Education for Equity and Access, what are some of your greatest growth steps? Right. And this is just from a leadership lens. What are some of your greatest growth steps with regard to leadership as an equity agent? Because that’s a huge mindset shift for a lot of people. And what were some of your lessons learned regarding social justice initiatives and developing coalitions for this keyword in education.
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
You’ve got some great questions this morning. Michael. It’s been a journey. I’m embarking on my 30th year as an educator and I’ve held a number of positions, and I’m at a point in my career where I’ve been a leader much longer than I have been a classroom teacher or a coach. But I don’t know how to do this work without that equity lens. That for me is education. How can we truly educate children and lead as educational leaders without that lens of equity? And for me, that is providing every individual, whether it’s a student or staff, anyone in that school community with the tools that they need, the systems that they need to be successful. And we know that we all begin in different places. I am an immigrant, I am an English learner. I grew up in poverty. I grew up with trauma. I’m first and high school graduate, first gen, college graduate, first gen doctorate. So for me it has always been about equity and and justice and serving an underserved communities and people. Because I was one of those people I still identify as an English learner. I still identify with many of the issues that come up in education for those communities. And for me, it was just simply understanding that we have to talk about the issues that create inequity and injustice in our schools, in our educational systems, and it can be done. It doesn’t have to be a negative experience. We always say we have to have the courage to have those conversations. And one of the things that I have pinned on my Twitter handle is be brave enough to start a conversation that matters. And so that is the key in whatever situation or circumstance that you are in. The guiding question is how is this good for students? How is this good for all students? And if it’s not, then that’s not what we do here. We do things here that support every student. We don’t leave kids behind. I hate that phrase falling through the cracks. Why do we have cracks, right? We have this approach of of putting Band-Aids on situations. But we have to think big. We have to think about systems and changing the systems that create the cracks so that we don’t have students falling behind. So. So what is the key for me is, is start the conversation and follow through with action. Since the murder of George Floyd, there’s been so much talk about equity and injustice and micro-aggressions and anti-bias and and equity inclusion. But I think we need to move beyond that learning. Bravo. There’s so much learning. Great. But how do we we move into doing we’ve got this knowing, doing gap when it comes to the work of equity and justice in educational settings. And we have to close that gap.
Dr. Michael Conner
And you know, Dr. Perez-Isiah was I took a lot of notes from from that from your response. And what really resonated with me was that Act two or the courage to have the conversation right. And when I think about that and you said that and I reference or I kind of yeah, reference when I was a superintendent and I used to make a comment that you said a lot of people and they told me it hurt them. And I said, I care about the kids a little bit more than the adults. And when I used to say that my conversation tone or I should say conversation folk is always was rooted and grounded in kids, that these kind of like that cause the cause effect. Right. And what you know with that, when you look at the outcome from that, a lot of adults felt uncomfortable because the conversations were grounded on kids. Specifically what really equity looks like right. But you’re right about the Band-Aid system, right? We just put Band-Aids on this military model that doesn’t correlate with the needs of our black and brown students and Generation Alpha and Generation Z. We had been having a lot of great conversations, right, Dr. President, Isaiah, across the country about this. I’m saying this and I’m going to be very intentional, bold and unapologetic. Like my book says that we need to stop having conversations and we need to start acting with a level of strategic urgency because we cannot continue with the same practices, you know, in this stage of education. So I want to go down to the next question. Right. And it kind of underscores the state of education. And I’ve heard you speak nationally. I’ve heard you speak, whether it be on different webinars, different seminars. And every time that I I hear you right, I get something new out of this. So that’s why I got this pen going a mile a minute. But, you know, when you think about coalescing this coalescing strategy for equity, but underpinning what I think that in the what is kind of like the mega, you know, or the meta theme that carries through each of your what would be webinars or whether be keynoting is this whole community approach which I concur. 1,000,000%, right? So now I kind of put my superintendent hat back on and I’m engaging with you, Dr. Perez. Isaiah. And if I’m a superintendent, an executive leader, principal teacher, or just an advocate to change the system for or what does this look like for policy leadership, a governance disruption in the AC stage of education?
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
Oh, great question. I was a principal for seven years, and at the time we were talking about the whole child and meeting the needs of the whole child, which is of course is wonderful addressing Maslow and Bloom at the same time. But really the key for us as a school community was addressing the needs of the whole community, not just the whole child. And so we had to create systems in our district, in our school, at my school that address those needs, because we knew a very important part that I talk about quite a bit is the parent engagement piece. And so having parents as partners in that learning, we can support students and they will do well if we support students while we’re growing our connections, our relationships, our systems, our opportunities for parents. You skyrocketed that success for kids. And as a district, we invested in doing that in the whole community approach. And one of those things was investing in social workers for every one of our school sites in in the district I was in at that at that time, we invested in community liaisons in someone whose role was to partner with teachers and the principal to create opportunities for learning and engagement with parents. We invested in partnerships with our school community, so we had a partnership with USC where we had 5 to 10 counseling interns every single semester for our students. So when we began to to address those needs with professional development that built capacity in our teachers and not just reading and writing right, because those are important math. That’s super important. But also in in looking at anti-bias, in culturally responsive teaching, in relationships, at the core of every one of those initiatives was relationships. And and we just did that. We did that. We had a response to intervention system that addressed behavior and academics. And if we didn’t have a tool or resource, we directed our parents to those community partners that were able to do that work with us. And so investing in the whole community and as a leader, I mean, it starts at the top. You know, that’s my goal as a former soup, we have to do something that I call at it. We have to acknowledge that there is an issue. We have to declare that we’re we’re going to combat battle against this issue. We have to declare our solidarity. We have to disrupt the system just because it’s been comfortable for adults for 25 years. If it’s not getting results for kids, if it’s not good for kids, I’m sorry your comfort comes second to the work that we need to do for our students. And ideally, you you have a strong partnership there. But too often in education, we we settle because it’s comfortable to leave things the way they are status quo. Dr. Anthony Muhammad, a mentor and friend, talks about the culture, shifts. That was another focus for us. The hardest thing to change. Our adult believes that we know that those beliefs are connected to behaviors in the classrooms and in our schools. And if we’re not addressing in and impacting those beliefs, then we’re going to get the same behaviors constantly, consistently. Our teachers are such an important part of the work for our students. Probably the most important part of that work. So we want to make sure that we’re impacting learning together, addressing our our biases, creating systems of support not only for students but for staff, and that we are working together as a whole community to address our students. So let me go back to added Acknowledge that there’s a system to declare your solidarity, disrupt those inequities in systems and here’s a big one that we have a harder time with. Invest. Invest. So my my former district invested in social workers, invested in people, invested in materials and resources. And then at the end, you get transformation. You get transformation not only for your students at your own school, but for the community and our parents in that community.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely at it at that for transformation. And, you know, you underscore some of the best practices in education. Right. And I’m going to reference Hattiesburg, the effect size of direct instruction. But this is going to be a synchronous And please. So everybody that are tuning in today, please rewind this a couple times, multiple times, as you just heard that response, because there was a lot in there. And when we talk about investment, Dr. Perez-Isiah’s district invested in this whole community approach and the B.C stage of education. If you think about the three stages of education before COVID, during COVID and after COVID, before COVID, we had the whole child approach. But you saw Dr. Perez Isaiah district taking the whole community approach. We were forced in the during COVID stage of education to take a whole community approach. This was an evolution. Because of COVID, we had to be able to do that. Now I’m starting to see this hybrid of going back to the whole child approach. What yes, is important, albeit the whole community approach will have radical transformation to ensure that we have high quality education, educational conditions for our students. But when I think of it and the transformation as needed and you started to talk about this, right, with this anti-bias culture, responsive pedagogy, but what people don’t fail to realize a core element of culturally responsive practices is building relationships. I in this whole community approach, we talk a lot about the pedagogical sense of it, but we need to be able to underscore what I like to call the software approach or the software element within this whole culture, responsive pedagogical model or research model of being of establishing relationships. But I concur. Dr. Perez. I say about this, we need to take a whole community approach in this AC stage of education. And now underscoring your response from the first question is that we have to be able to now have courageous conversations or conversations that include the voices of the community. But going to the next question. Right. And I want to talk about your book, and it’s called Beyond Conversations about Race A Guide for Discussions with Students, Teachers and what we were just talking about, communities. Right. This has been a bestseller. Congratulations. You’re one of the most recognized authors. This is cool. And you worked with someone that I just absolutely love, Evette Jackson. I she’s a personal favorite of mine. So, you know, I wish I could live vicariously with you. Just, you know, having that experience of developing that important text. But what are some key underpinnings that leaders and educators can utilize in their change management processes for equity and excellence that they can underscore using your book?
Dr. Perez-Isiah
I’m let me go back a little bit to the book. So I get a call from Doug Reeves and he’s like, Hey, I’m putting a group of people together. I’m writing this book. Would you like to be part of it? And I said, Of course. I mean, it’s Doug Reeves, right? Right, right. And then he’s like, wow. It’s it’s Anthony Muhammad. It’s event. Jackson, It’s Cherokee, Holly, It’s Kenneth Williams. And I make my jaw dropped and these are people whose work I’ve used in my own research, in my own work. So I’m just I had to put it out there. I am honored and delighted to be part of that work. And I feel.
Dr. Michael Conner
Like I got to as I said, that’s like Barack Obama asking you, hey, you want to be a part of a research abstract And I’m going to say no. Doug read for use and you want to be a part of a project. Yes, I get it.
Dr. Perez-Isiah
Yes, Yes. Amen. And it was post George Floyd. The murder of George Floyd was was kind of what triggered the the conversation about this the need for this book. And what’s great about this book is we just get to it like there needs to be a conversation and okay, enough. This is where we are today as a country or an educational system, but we can do better and when you ask teachers or educators to be culturally responsive, if you know nothing about it, it feels like, Whoa, what do you mean? What are you talking about? If you ask people to have conversations about relationships and how those relationships impact the work that we do, people’s ability to learn, people’s ability to teach, then it becomes not so scary or so abstract. And the beauty in this book is that we use vignettes to help people spark those conversations. So whether it’s having it about inclusion or personal biases, it helps people start having the conversation without feeling like this is about me. So let’s talk about this scenario. Here are some questions to follow up those readings. And how would you handle that situation? How does that make you feel? Mirror checks. Where do you stand when it comes to biases or micro-aggressions? We all have them, so we can all relate and have a conversation about that. So that that I think is is a beautiful piece to start to go beyond the conversations of race. So race is important that work that I work with relationships. If you don’t know me, what do you know about me? I wrote a piece a couple of years ago, The Myth of Colorblindness, and when I started teaching, it was the early nineties. And I remember having this mindset because that’s, that’s what we were talking about in education at the time, that we’re all part of the human race and we’re all humans and we’re going to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. And I learned very quickly now this is not the case. Language experiences, lived experiences, culture searched important pieces to pull into our classroom settings. If you expect me to leave my language and my culture at the door, why do you see me and who I am and what I bring? The richness that I’m bringing to this classroom? So the book is amazing. If you’re starting to have those conversations, whether it’s with your parent community or your teacher community, it’s it’s a great way to spark those not only courageous but critical. They’re critical conversations.
Dr. Michael Conner
You know, when I when I think about, you know, critical conversations on a past podcast, I had the chance to have Dr. Terry Howard on there. And he started. He started going through his, you know, the critical pedagogy, you know, critical race theory and critical wellness, right? And we need to have these high level of critical conversations around race, relationships and culture. And, you know, Dr. Perez, as as you had posted something where I had saw that four different states are now going to review their AP curriculums pertaining to African-American African history. And you so eloquently target it, you know, just now, where why are we starting to eliminate the voices, the culture of our students when Generation Alpha and Generation Z, 50% of them are black and brown and they represent public education. So essentially, we’re trying to eliminate 50% of our student demographics through essential systems and essential functions within these systems of education. And I just think that this is at a critical juncture where you are, right? We need to have these critical conversations around race, relationships and culture. But when I start thinking about this, this leads into a podcast that I heard you speak about, which I consider in them the various taboos in education and one less be let’s be real a race, right? And what we see is race biases, micro-aggressions via the district and the school culture and the dynamics of that and representation that is needed to parallel. We got we haven’t even talked about black and brown representation. More on the lines. You hear me? I’ve been advocating more for more black and brown super tennis that are women because we’re only at 4%, which is, you know, I’m to use Hillary Clinton’s words, deplorable. Right? Let’s just be honest. 4% of our superintendents are women of color. Where are we? 20, 23? But when we think about that, about race, right. And when we think about gender, right. In this level set of you and I, creating this nirvana is not going to be hypothetical with the work that we’re going to do together and have a coalition deep to really address these issues. But in this for in this world of nirvana, what does that look like obsolete of these equity barriers and the AC stage of education?
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
I’ll start with it can be done and can be done. I’ve been part of this work directly as a principal in my former district and now director of Elementary Schools, Equity and Access in my new district. We were definitely in different places, but you know, the work is the same. So in my district currently, we’re having conversations about ACL as a lever for equity. And so that that was our starting point because you talked about the pandemic a little bit ago and the pandemic just kind of shined a light on shine a light shine a light on an issue that was there. It was an issue that people who’ve done equity work have done this for a while, realize, yes, that it’s here. But during the pandemic, it was on full display for all to see. And I think we got to a point where we realized like, okay, these aren’t just articles that people are writing for fine, this is real. And the research, the data is before your eyes. You’re seeing the inequities, whether whether it was something like lack of devices or a lack of space to actually do your work to children who lost parents, who who suddenly found themselves in a foster program, families who were suddenly homeless. The inequity pieces were there. But you assess where you are and you start there. And start there. And that may be just that conversation about relationships, social, emotional learning, something I’m hearing right now is our students are different. The students I was teaching pre-pandemic are not the students I am teaching now. We have second graders who missed kindergarten, first grade and aren’t sure how to navigate school, how to navigate problem solving. And we have teachers who are overwhelmed. I wrote a piece about what I learned about crisis leadership and, you know, ten pieces, ten things I learned number one and number ten were people first making those connections, understanding your community, understanding their experiences, taking those things into account. And there’s a fine line between like, oh, you know, poor thing, they’ve been through so much or Oh my gosh, they’ve been through so much. I’m going to give my students the tools to empower them, to help them grow, to help them overcome and to be successful. And you 20 years from now.
Dr. Michael Conner
You just I like to say this. You just I’m just writing this down, as you’re saying, as you were talking then I’ve reference back to and again, I apologize. I was just writing down some of your some of the notes I’m taking. But Martin Haberman is work pedagogy of poverty versus pedagogy of plenty. And when we talk about that, we can’t have that. Oh, you know, Johnny, I feel sorry for you. And guess what happens when you start feeling sorry for students that look like you and I, Dr. Perez-Isiah. And according to my framework, the expectation gap starts to become exacerbated. Right? And just walking about right, the just of core foundations of just knowing or assessing your community. I love how you keep reference in back to community because, again, community is a key pillar and spread for any type of transformation process. I don’t care how deep, I don’t care how strong your strategy may be. I don’t care what type of indicators that you have. You cannot do this work alone, and the community will have to be a driving force for you to be able to complete this work. But, you know, when we think about this, and I want to touch upon the last part and I just want to just kind of, you know, how I think, Dr. Perez, I say I want to reference back tomorrow habemus work around pedagogy, poverty. And then this new element that I read was a white paper on Pedagogy of Plenty. Right? So how do we now move away from I like we are, how do we and act? I should say equity in excellence is pedagogy of plenty as the normalization, but we have to do it with a strategic level of innovation, right? Because we can’t go back to doing the same things because we will get the same outcomes. And then before COVID stage of education, that’s that pedagogy, right? So my definition of innovation is simplistic, right? Is simple. Expecting different outcomes in a controlled and semi-structured manner. Data testing, data test data testing, diagnostic plan of action. How would you start to incorporate those frames with this level of change in the AC stage of education?
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
and 4% of superintendents are black or brown women. What I learned through crisis leadership during COVID is the importance of leadership. I know we talk about it, we tweet about it, we have bumper stickers about it. But damn, it’s about leadership. And we can have leaders at every level. But it is critical to have leaders at those really impactful, very critical positions because you can get things done quickly if you have a leader, whether it’s a school leader or a district leader, that believes that there is an issue, that believes that it is their responsibility to help lead and model this work and that is willing to invest the dollars necessary to create changes. I mean, that’s amazing. The other part of this work is accountability. And we’ve talked about adult beliefs and how that impacts behaviors. And sometimes it is uncomfortable to address those beliefs and negative impacts, perhaps of negative beliefs, but that accountability has to come from everyone. And when you are a leader who is leading for a healthy culture, you have shared accountability. No, we don’t do that. We don’t do that here. This is how we treat our students. This is how we treat each other. This is how we’re investing these equitable funding sources, title moneys, ASTER funding and those decisions have to be made shared with shared leadership. But you need a leader who is willing to add it to it. Acknowledge, declare, disrupt, invest, transform. I was just going to say and that works. Begin begins with relationships. It begins with a shift in that culture. And people, people are watching you when you are in those leadership positions. They’re watching what you do, what you don’t do, what you say, what you don’t say. My friend Ken Williams says What you focus on grows. What are we focusing on as leaders now?
Dr. Michael Conner
And Dr. Perez-Isiah, I’m just looking at this. I think this has to be an essential underpinning element within state of education, shared accountability and shared leadership, where strategically adding in the add it in to your transform process. Right. Because it can’t be your traditional static approach of leadership, which is a hierarchy where it’s mainly top down, right? Because if you think about the military model, that’s how it’s designed. But when we talk about disrupt in the structures, in the systems, both at a macro and micro level, broad level to the classroom, you have to have that level of shared accountability, shared leadership, where now relationships are shift in culture. So, Dr. Perez-Isiah, this is the last question. And I tell you, this has been extraordinary. A mutual friend of ours, right? And this was the episode before even Tom Murphy, mutual friend gave you that. You I mean, you saw the episode. So and one thing I’m going to highlight where he said the last episode, everybody Tom called Dr. Perez-Isiah varsity call itself J B and I put myself at the middle school level. So we had all of the levels, not even at the freshman level. I’m two levels down from Dr. Perez-Isiah, Tom Murray But last question, right? Your varsity. I mean, you have Tom Murray calling you varsity. The eighth grade middle school meeting going to the Varsity Games. I your keynote and your podcast to pick up nuggets. But what three words do you want today’s audience to leave our podcast with with regards to this whole child, whole community approach that is focused on the equity work in the stage of education, What three words should our participants always adhere to when we reflect on how to manifest or how we can manifest the needs of all in this new dimension or paradigm in education?
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
Well, I’m going to start with relationships because I am passionate about leadership and equity, but nothing can happen without those relationships. And you can’t fake it. I mean, you can’t fake the funk. People know kids now. So the relationship piece is the foundation for any of this work. Equity would be my second word. I don’t see providing a real strong education equity in your systems. And then the last word. Ooh, that’s a tough one. But leadership. Yeah, leadership. So many to choose from. We need we need to be the leaders that we needed and we need to support in the development and creation of leaders. My teachers used to say, I’m not a leader, I’m a classroom teacher. You are a leader. You are a leader of your classroom. You are a direct connection to the community, school to community. We have people in informal leadership positions and my office manager at the time, she knew every student, every family. She knew when someone was experiencing challenges. And she was our direct connection and people trusted her and came to her. So we lead in different positions at different levels, but we lead and we lead for equity, and we do that through relationships.
Dr. Michael Conner
I absolutely love it. Dr. Perez-Isiah one Relationships as the core foundation to something we cannot negate it is the nexus and the stage of education, which is equity, strong educational systems for all. And I just love how you focus and prioritize on leadership, leadership, leadership that shared leadership, that creation of leaders. Because, you know, every day. Dr. Perez-Isiah, I always do my leadership test. And one thing I always write at the bottom besides change the world is leadership matters because leadership does matter, especially creating environments for all. So, Dr. Perez-Isiah, Michael’s sister, it has been an absolute honor to have you on Voices for Excellence. Thank you so much. You both come on now. I mean, literally. Audience, do not let her know. You don’t let all of you. But to order your book. Dr. Isaiah ordered to get in contact with you. Because I know that there are a lot of leaders black, brown, white. It doesn’t matter. You know, a lot of people that want to know how to be able to bridge these critical conversations, whether it be in their district or their organization, or just get your book as a guide to help them. How would they be able to do that?
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
You can always go to my webpage, rosaisiah.com. A great way also to connect with me is direct message Twitter @RosaIsiah and the book the publisher solution tree are you can certainly go that path but of course you can find it on Amazon or reach out to me.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely and my sister in the work I appreciate you so much just now for just showing up on on the podcast, but the work that you’re not just in California but nationally. So I will I don’t know when I’ll see you. I’m coming out to California a lot, so I know I will get to see you in the next couple months.
Dr. Rosa Perez-Isiah
We’ll get to see each other in April at ASU in San Diego.
Dr. Michael Conner
I believe I will see you in San Diego in two months, actually, next month. I will see you in San Diego. So on that note, thank you. And everybody forward and upward. Have a great day.
