Dr. Shaun Nelms is the Vice President for Community Partnerships at the University of Rochester. One of his notable achievements was creating and implementing a school transformation model for the lowest-performing school in the lowest-performing district in New York State.
Dr. Michael Conner
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening from wherever you are. I am Dr. Michael Conner, CEO and Founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group. And welcome to another episode of Voices for Excellence and today’s guest, I’m a little biased and subjective when I say this. So I remember when I was getting ready to make my transition out of Connecticut, and I was wondering where to go. And Dr. Shaun Nelms, he was the impetus to why I am in right in New York. We had a great long, long conversation and it just felt right. Right. The academic academia up here in Rochester is second to none. We have steadfast educational leaders like Dr. Shaun Nelms in the Rochester area. And I said, hey, I’m going to make the plunge. And when I told Dr. Nelms I was moving out here. Big, big smile. Just happy, too. Happy to have me out here. And he welcomed me with open arms. But let’s forget about that. He is one of the… I call him a legend out here in Rochester, but he is one of the most remarkable education leaders, a superintendent, but transitioning into a new role at the University of Rochester. So it is an absolute honor to have my brother here. One of my personal good friends, a Rochester legend. When we talk about being legendary in the space, we always strive to be like this individual. I welcome you, Dr. Shaun Nelms. Dr. Nelms, how are you?
Dr. Shaun Nelms
Good brother. Man. Great. Thank you for that warm and exaggerated introduction. I appreciate you, though. I know Rochester is a great place and welcome to the brain Trust. I think it’s important when you can bring talent like yourself to an area that use that talent to create new leaders. It it provides a more vibrant and more active and more intellectual community. So you being part of that is only going to add to what we started some years ago. And yeah, the work here at East and work here in Rochester, which we’ll talk about in a sec, has been some of the most rewarding experiences that I’ve had as a leader. I think it has made me a better person. It’s grounded me and understanding the moral purpose of my work and what I want to bring to a community. More importantly, how the community has brought itself to me and that bi directional nature of community that was critically important. I think we have to think about that bi directional aspect. Even in leadership, when we’re leading in these complex school settings that no longer can we think about school transformation as a single heroic figure coming in and creating all these systems and structures and then walking away and things about sustain itself that it never works. You can’t point to any model in any country or any industry where a single leader came in and fixed some a problem and it created lasting change. What you do see in thriving communities, if it’s industries and education or otherwise, is a sense of organizational coherence that’s built within the system, that allows individuals to be bold and to be authentic in their work and in their process. So I’m excited about that insight to talk more about those opportunities, the things that we’ve done here and the intersection between that work and your book.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely. And Dr. Nelms, I just want to be your Dwayne Wade or Chris Bosh to LeBron James from the Miami Heat. And of course, I want to be your Scottie Pippen, where, you know, Jordan, you’ll you won’t be Scottie right now. Okay? Right. Yeah. I take that back I’ll think that that those guy all right. Not about bad. No, Doctor. Now, Shaun, I tell you, I want to say thank you, man, because, you know, like I said, you’re, you were one of the main reasons why I came out to this area. The the fabric of education, the leaders that are out here and especially with your voice, you know, now, as you moved out of the superintendent role from east into this great new role at the University of Rochester that we’re going to talk about, but I want to say what they can gradually patient, author and author. Okay, we’re going get into that and talk about your book. Dr. Nelm’’s just released a book. It’s called Leading with Purpose: Empowering Others to Create Sustaining Change. I apologize. And that is a book you need to get into your hand. We’ll talk about that later in the podcast. But, Dr. Nelms, let’s get into the podcast because I’m ready for this conversation. You know, we have these types of conversations to my audience. We have this type of conversation is over lunch break and bread together here in Rochester home and everybody loves Rochester up here. And I can see why everybody talks about it specifically. When you got leaders like Dr. Nelms in the community, what is there not to brag about? So but Dr. Nelms, leaders across the country know your work as superintendent or was former superintendent now in Rochester, New York, and and and the academic research element at the University of Rochester. But what equity song defines Dr. Shaun Nelms and when Dr. Nelms walks into a room and I’m telling you I’ve seen you walk into a room, it is it got weight to it, right? But when you walk into a room to give a key know or provide a lecture at the University of Rochester, what song immediately comes to their mind.
Dr. Shaun Nelms
And that’s a that is a great, great question that I wasn’t anticipating that I’ll tell you that I am, I am unapologetic. So you say and talk about intentionality, being bold, unapologetic. I have grown into my unapologetic self where when I was a young leader, I would often kind of dismiss parts of my past or who actually well, I thought I had to be this mythical figure, you know, that that led schools. Now I just lean into who I am and I am a hip hop junkie and I’m a huge Jay-Z stan. However, I’m gonna go at Kendrick Lamar on this one. And I must say the song DNA. Yeah, from the lyrics itself to the beat, you know it’s I when I walk up to a room, you know, head back, shoulder bag, chest out, DNA is in my head. Because it’s symbolic to not only where we are in our space of leadership, but where we come from and the importance of knowing that. We are who we are because of those who came before us. And it’s our obligation and responsibility to create leaders for the next generation. And so within our spirit, within our DNA, within our our mental construct, we have to think about ourselves in every space as as one who is willing to lead with and for others.
Dr. Michael Conner
And, Dr. Nelms, when I’m just capturing this, when I think about Kendrick Lamar and that unapologetic spirit, I always I reference back to me, that’s the alignment to that. But that’s just me personally. But yes, you know, when you talk about this, a simulation, right, And relating and losing our identity within this as we get to or as we go through the stages of leadership, knowing our knowing we are right, becoming apologetic with our stance and our approach and how we concretize that stance, whether it be rooted in equity excellence, how we’re providing opportunities for, I like to say, the historically excluded student groups. These are the things that we have to be able to exhibit and have to be able to show the next set of leaders like you talked about. But DNA, that song is a sick acid that you’re on that fits you perfect. Oh, man. You want to talk about organizational coherence, right? Right. Yeah. So here is to to the debt. But again, Dr. Nelms, congratulations on your book, right? Leading with Purpose: Empowering Others to Create Sustainable Change just came out just hit market, right. I know is going to be a bestseller. I know it’s going to be able to make change in the education ecosystem. But for our audience and including myself, we’re just going with the book just came out right? Is the book about how is it about transformation and how will it impact leaders in their practices?
Dr. Shaun Nelms
So the book itself is so new that as she gave you the wrong name because I changed it. It’s called Leading with Purpose: Empowering Others to Create Lasting Change. And so I went back with sustainability and lasting intentionally because it was, it was important that they mean something similar in terms of the ability to sustain. But I saw lasting as the ability to not only houses be sustained in that space. Right. But for the leader of allows them to use that in other spaces that they enter. Absolutely. So I didn’t want sustaining to be confused with the work that you create in a school or in a district, but that as a leader it’s lasting within you and your ability to then create other opportunities and networks of support. So I’ll do it again. So it allows people to create other networks of support through using that that lasting frame. So the book itself is It’s My Journey, Be honest with you. Yeah. And you speak about going back to the song DNA. I begin the book talking about how equity was realized in my own household. I grew up with siblings, three siblings, and there was a time in which my sister, who was a junior in high school, and my brother, who was an eighth grade student in a different school that my brother went to a magnet school. My sister went to traditional public school and they came home one day and pulled out the same math test. So my sister was given the same math book as my brother in eighth grade, sharing parents carrying household, you know, demystify that, you know, do they care? They had a terrible education. We had a very education forward household. But the school system itself had made a decision that some kids in some schools would be going to be giving Mattocks as juniors, as some kids, another school who are going to have an eighth grade. So the system itself was starting to make a kind decision of dividing kids based on what they thought they were able to achieve. So it wasn’t my parents, it wasn’t wells, it wasn’t our community. It was a school system itself that was sorting and selecting students. And why I remember that day so vividly is we were so competitive, we would sit at our kitchen table. So along came all the grades. We all pulled them out like we ought to know who’s got the their grade on the top of the fridge, who’s not going to lower the highest goes like it was our own imperative. This in a very positive way. And that was a moment where I realized that we weren’t, no matter how much we wanted to achieve, they were powers to be that we’re making decisions on our behalf that was set us up for life, right?Going to higher education organizations or some kids are going to go into the workforce like the school system was designing outcomes for kids, and that was very concerning to me. And so the book starts kind of framing the importance of of understanding equity is is this is a systemic issue. The middle part of the book goes into school reform. I think it’s really important for us to talk about all the the efforts locally at the state level and federal level of people trying to reform schools. And I make the argument that you want the best intentions. School reform is a failed attempt because de-emphasize is the importance of leadership in those systems. And so we we transition from the word reform to transformation, because transformation implies it’s happening with a community and not to it. And then I make the argument that even with the best laid plans, you have to create a sense of interpersonal accountability within systems where people, success and failure equally do a distributed layers or distributed leadership model. And then I go through some very practical examples of how I had to apply that evolution to my job as a school principal, as a teacher, as a superintendent over the years. And I use a lot of examples of where I didn’t when that was not successful, examples where I may have failed because I think effective leaders are those that are humble. They express a sense of humility and are willing to share that the next generation so that they don’t make those same mistakes or that prepare for what was to come. And so that is the evolution of the book. It’s really a journey that will prepare any type of leader in any industry to think about their obligation to build the next generation of leaders after them. So at East, you know, this is a school system where when I entered eight years ago as superintendent, the graduation rate was 29%. Yeah, it was a loss performing school in the lowest performing district in New York State. And eight years later, the graduation rate surpassed 85%. And that was it because of me as because we created a system that was built around coherence, particularly with addressing some of those instructional gaps that you talk about in your book. And so we really thought about designing a school with the community. So no plans are written until we met with the entire school community to ask them, what do you want to see in a school system? And after they gave us their input, we went back in the line that with theory, aligning our practice and then created the strategic plan for the school that would last over ten years that would allow us to incrementally address that the key levers to success. And that’s what we’ve done. So so the book talks about that. It doesn’t talk about the school as much as I wanted to emphasize that it is not my job to tell the school story. It is the school’s job to tell the school story. So I just gave a glimpse of how I experience it as a leader within that learning process.
Dr. Michael Conner
Absolutely amazing, Dr. Nelms. And I can tell you to my audience, right when Shaun took over East, right, took over East. Yes, it was at 29% graduation rate. You should see East now being a part of this community, the leadership and the distributed leadership model that Dr. Nelms is implementing, empowering community members, empowering his key stakeholders and practitioners at East. It is as it is a school that you it’s a desire to go into it, you know. And Dr. Nelms, congratulations on such a successful tenure as superintendent. But one of the things that I really want to unwrap right for my audience is that the consideration that you took in empowering people, providing that level of empathy, design, thinking one on one right off the bat and going back and iterating and developing your plan based on that, the stories and the examples within Dr. Nelms’s book, it brings it to life, how to actually implement it, and how to actually look at specific strategies. A customized right customized to your contextual environment within leadership. And Dr. Nelms, thank you. That book, I’m telling you, yes, sustained a lot When I went to watch everybody. This is the reason why I said when I went to lunch with Dr. Nelms a couple weeks ago, it was sustaining. I think it was actually changed to lasting what I’d texted Dr. Nelms provides it just strength is the actual artifact.
Dr. Shaun Nelms
Well, you know, that is so. So I think words matter, right? And so I think, you know, I was I’m certainly not to talk about school transformation as as as as being one that’s that’s more reforming. Right. So some people say, you know, it’s reforming is a transformation to transforming. And I think reforming has a negative connotation. I can you know, and so I wanted to I really tried to be careful in how I use the words. I do not want to misrepresent the community that I serve. Absolutely. And so the entire context of the book, the entire context of what I try to do as a person in what is to be in these spaces is to make sure that when I representing the work of others, that I do it respectfully. Absolutely. And I do it in ways that that capture their investment in the change process. And you’ll never see me either be the person on stage saying I or get my book. This is what I did to East. It’s really an opportunity for me to acknowledge the teacher leaders, the teachers, the parents, the kids, the administrators, and the impact they had on me as a leader. That’s the second half of the book that that, you know, if you think about this should be leadership. It’s really an actionable process. And so if it’s actionable, that means it involves many, many converging thoughts and ideas. And so how do you represent the entire movement without representing all those people who who poured into the work? And so I hope that this book is respectful of all educators to know that although you may be the person doing lesson plans in the classroom every day in second grade, I taught back to you and the skills that you put into the board, into the is impacting them as high school seniors when they’re graduating and that our kids don’t just move on and forget what we taught them and what we bought into them. That education is on a continuum. And so if you don’t build a system, systems change and and systemic change. You have to talk about it as a continual system of iteration. And I think that book does it. Your book does that. It’s unapologetically does that. It talks about the cyclical nature of the work and how important it is for us to revisit and to iterate over time. And I don’t think we’ve had those conversations in schools long enough, even the policy issues that, you know, that approach that wanted to, you know, judge individual teachers performance ignored what they could experience a years prior. It also ignored the impact of that work for future years. So so the evaluation wasn’t wasn’t a bad thing, but it was to specific and concrete, particularly in New York State, because it did not account for the evolution of the work over time. And so I really I really think we we need to demystify why, you know, like academic success and academic outcomes by thinking about it on a continuum within a system as opposed to judging the independent and individual aspects of teaching, learning and assessment. And that and that’s what that book talks about. That’s what your book talks about. And I think that’s where school transformation conversations are headed. I can tell you in research that those are things that we that we’ve been studying here at East is making sure that we we look at this problem from both a qualitative and quantitative lens. And the quality of lens allows us to understand how people are experiencing the transformation process of how we can improve that other school context. So I’m excited about that. So my mind is toxic between theory and practice because I really see the convergence of that happening here at East.
Dr. Michael Conner
And you are one of the true academics, Dr. Nelms, and I love your differentiation between reform and transformation right? And I just want to just underscore what you stated about reform, because it’s completely true in the backstage case. And when we look at a lot of the national and even local state reform initiatives or school reform and debt, we all saw segments of that of the reform strategy being impacted by and where we always saw segments of it. We saw the gap whatever gap we wanted to focus on access gap, opportunity gap exacerbated itself because the reform strategies or the reform attempt through policy, even at the federal level, I like to say, cause this explicit and implicit segregation of schools segregate students as well. But really, like now, as we move into the stage of education around transformation, and there’s a lot of connectivity between my book and your book. And again, congratulations with that. I know the academic component in both of us really unwrapped what success and outcomes look like, but I want to highlight your new position. My congratulations on your appointment as Vice President of Beauty Partnerships at the University of Rhode Island University. Rochester That’s right. It’s University. Rochester right in our home of Rochester. You are so now based on this, right? You are also a clinical professor of educational leadership at the Warner School. And you are of u r u of bar. That’s right. That’s right. So but for my audience, what will your new role look like at the University of Rochester? But more importantly, because you have been so steadfast in importance in the K-12 sector, how will you continue your work in the pre-K through 12 landscape of education?
Dr. Shaun Nelms
You know, it’s interesting. I was reading your book and articles on Chapter seven, The Excellence Loop for Cultural Transformation, and in that in that chapter you talk about collaboration is Necessity for success, excellence and access were a priority, and it takes a community to raise a child. And I think that the University of Rochester as an organization can lean into those same principles as well. I think we have a ton of examples of success at the university that the community has no idea about. Right? And so we work in isolation. We have to understand that the communication of what we’re doing is important. At the same time, there are needs in the community that the university may not be aware of because there is no direct pipeline or pathway between the communities needs and the university’s research or a university’s commitment to the community. So how do we build a bridge between that? And when I say community, I don’t just mean Rochester, New York. You have has a national international community as well. And so if we’re going to be an anchor institution in this community, we’re the only institution that actually is within the city limits. Most of the other ones are on the outside and suburban or rural communities. Then we have an obligation, a responsibility, an obligation and a responsibility to make sure that our work mirrors the needs of our local community as well. So examples of that would be in education, also be a part of that. What my main job. But if this partnership with the State Education Department for ease is to continue, it has to be a process that is agreed upon between the university, say, Education department, local school boards. I’ll help support that. At the same time, you know, we are one institution research, one institution, and also has the the most aggressive and progressive, I would say, medical facility in the country, but definitely locally here. And so, you know, we have issues of behavioral health or trauma within our community. To what extent is the university responding in ways that are proactive but also supportive of the crises in the moment and then providing opportunities for families to heal and move on later on in life. So the medical field, if it’s the eye care or dental or emergency department, we have a responsibility to support the community in ways that that the our services can support the healing of that community. If you look at these other aspects of education itself, not just from a K-12 space, but we also prepare future teachers and administrators and counselors for the work ahead. So what lessons are we learning is that is changing the curricula within our academic programs, not just education, but psychology and philosophy, whatever those things are, there’s an opportunity for us to learn from this community, to strengthen our presence, but also is opportunity for us to use things that we do really, really well to strengthen the community also. So it’ll be a be creating a bi directional leadership between Rochester and and the folks that we serve.
Dr. Michael Conner
Amazing, amazing, Dr. Nelms.
Dr. Shaun Nelms
It’s a big job, big job, man. But I’m excited about it.
Dr. Michael Conner
I tell you, when when I heard that you had gotten the job and we talked, you know, minimally about it and during that time you were with that transition about to be announced that completely, completely happy for you as the vitality right of your practices, your ground, it knowledge and work around research in and the academic world. This is just brought in in your scope and broadening your work to have bigger impact. And it’s on a community that just loves you to death and that just you know, prides on your work. So congratulations then. Thank you. Have our man. I tell you, it is definitely our one school will. No a lot of geek it out you’re in Rochester. Yeah and that that is that is one of the things that I love about this community but we were at once about a month ago right And this is and since you’re in the academia world, I know that there’s a lot of people that ask this question. It will go and what your perspective on this because this is I like to say this conversation happens a lot now. Right. And this is regarding teacher prep programs, you know, leadership prep programs. Right. And you being a former superintendent, know that there’s this misalignment or this test junction between the students that are majority matriculating in public education. 54% are black and brown. But our teacher and our leadership preparation programs are not really grounding in rooted practices of culture response, culture, responsive practices, right? Preparing teachers around culture, responsive pedagogy, but more importantly, leaders, how they’re metabolizing and redefining structures and systems so that it is more culturally responsive to our student needs. We see that disjunction, right? Yeah. Talk to me. Up to now, it’s about that. How do we universally address that preparation issue at the at the university and college level if we know that our student demographics are going to be the outlier of how we’re prepared, our teachers are leaders today.
Dr. Shaun Nelms
You know, I could say we’re fortunate in that this is a university partnership at least this way we’re in our eighth year. And as I said earlier, this partnership is bi directional, right? So as much as we’ve gained from the university, the university has gained from us, meaning the city of our choosing, this residents and students. And so the only way that the university here was able to change its curriculum was it being engage in the community ways to know what needed to be changed.Right, right. So by our professors volunteering in the school, they call teaching classes, they started realizing that we’re not preparing our students for this environment. And this environment does not mean it’s not a negative connotation, right? So some would say, oh, we have a pair of kids differently or teachers differently to go on to teach in the city as compared to the urban suburban, you know, you have to be culturally aware. So whatever environment you walk into because there will be black and brown kids and rural areas and suburban areas and urban settings, they’ll be kids who have intellectual limitations or disabilities and urban suburban new world. So so the the the pedagogical aspect of what we do in college should be that we prepare our students to enter any of those school environments. What we’ve done is historically, not just University of Rochester school prep programs, and we have prepared teachers to teach to the top and everybody else is in other right. And so we have total revamped our regular at the University of Rochester and our ED leadership program and our teaching program in our housing program, because we had some context within easy to understand what really needed to be done. And that’s why our graduates are leaving better prepared to do this work. So the solution, I would say, is any schools, college, university that is certifying teachers or administrators. I would argue you must have an established relationship with a school within its community. And I’m not saying just placing student teachers. I’m talking about getting in there and makes they have an established partnership with those schools. They can better understand how their curricula should mirror the realities of their local communities. And I think that is a very inexpensive adaptation to what we do as universities. I think it is just a commitment. It’s a commitment to the community, rather than seeing the community as potential, you know, potential funding opportunities for the school by, you know, come to our school and take our classes and pay to come to our classes and be on our campus and pay more for parking. It’s in the car on campus and not that big a parking, but also maybe a diploma. Right. So we almost become at times communities can become a funding model for schools of education as opposed to the schools of education, understanding that their commitment and their obligation to be an anchor institution within those communities and being intimately involved in the work that that they’re doing. So I note a lot of words there, But but I honestly feel like that’s the disconnect. The universities really aren’t anchored into the community in meaningful ways, and therefore the curricula only reflects what they probably created years ago. And when they establish a standards for their so their academic programs.
Dr. Michael Conner
Well, and Dr. Nelms, I really appreciate you saying that universities and colleges becoming or being committed to the community that committed of that community. And so in or if I would consider that as economic and educational imperatives where universities act as anchor institution. Yes. And redefine or define what that commitment is. So they have a better understanding of who they’re preparing and how they’re preparing teachers and leaders to engage in. I like to say high quality instruction, high quality educational experience for Generation Z generation out of a the antithesis of what you and I in our educational experiences. But I consider you, Dr. Nelms, a czar in the context of a and capacity from a systems lens. Brother, I’ll tell you this man, I just love this coming just next to you talking to you because is always how we align or that organizational coherence that we talk about from an alignment standpoint of capacity of systems. Right. And I think it was capacity building we know should be research driven, should be shared, differentiate it and leverage to improve new pedagogical strategies or practices or even new structures of systems for innovation and equity. Now it comes to Androgogy. Yes, Dr. Nelms, I pulled out the word for you when you asked me. I asked me. I mean, when it comes to androgogy, adult learning how to leaders build meaningful professional learning models for all tiers and alignment to the new strategy in education to promulgate innovation, excellence and equity for all.
Dr. Shaun Nelms
May You know that’s a great question and the shameless plug for the book because that’s what the book is is is geared to do it really is talking about adult learning in the sense of if you’re going to be leading organizations first, you have to know yourself as a leader. Absolutely. So I think we often put people in positions that perhaps they’re not ready for or trained to do, and then when they aren’t successful, how you define success is surprised that. Right. And I’m saying we have to pour as much energy into developing our leaders as we put into developing the minds of our students, because you have to be able to understand the conditions that you’re in how to navigate. So in the book, I give an example of two leaders that I had at least one I call my Red Shoe aim administrator because great ideas which just do it and then fix later on. When you do that, you create a ton of mistakes, right? You have another one. Was I really structure almost type A you know is I have all these questions to answer before I hit go. They happen to be on the same leadership team and it was always a constant conflict between the two of them, both having the same goal to create a quality education for themselves and for their students and for the adults in a setting. They had two very different approaches. And so as a leader, I had to navigate massage that conflict and make them understand they were going for the same thing. And then the colleges we had, it was not well like one another. It was, How do we utilize your skill set around being organized with your skill set of seeing the big picture sometime days before the issue occurs? And how do you create some synergy between the two of you that doesn’t deemphasize one skill set over the other, that doesn’t minimize someone’s passion, but really creates the maximum effort between the two opposing views. And once we had that conversation, like things started to click and they understood better understood how to serve one another. Why is that important? Because they had teachers they were going to be supporting who had that same conflict between a teacher and perhaps their supporting special ed teacher, who it wasn’t that they each wanted better for students, but their classroom was chaotic because they had two different styles of leadership. And so when you think about leadership in that context, it’s our responsibility to make sure that the folks that we teach are superintendents. The folks that we nurture as leaders and superintendents are able to lead other leaders, teacher leaders, student leaders in the future and not do it in a way that minimizes a learning style for one group but emphasize it for another. And so that’s what I’m really what residual here is. I’m really talking about the human investment into people knowing who they are as individuals and who they are as thinkers, knowing what they’re able to do, what they’re ready for, and then creating a system that accounts in accommodates all of those different personalities and learning styles. And I think those are successful organizations. It’s not the organizations that have everyone act like they’re the at the same type of thought leader as the person who has a title CEO that doesn’t work. Yeah, Yeah. And so that so that’s the type of work that that I would I would highly suggest we talk more about and as as leaders and we stop pretending that you know that the success of an organization is solely dependent on the superintendent. It was an education or CEO of a major company. Yeah they may they may create a quick spike in performance, but that’s not anymore lasting.
Dr. Michael Conner
They a last and I was going back to those two words, sustainable and lasting. But Dr. Nelms wow what a what what it answer because when I when I reflect on that and what I think a common misnomer is, is that when we think of organizational coherence in alignment, we think about the hardware I structures as systems, ensuring that there is a fundamental limit or rooted alignment within the systems and structures that we’re building. But you look at it from this inverse, where organizational coherence is from this, where a lot a lot of aspects that are not underpinned in education, human investment, thinking about each individual as they’re being as being critical thinkers of the organization, assessing the readiness. Right. Are they ready for that position? I mean, if you think about it, the correlation right from that is that we can substitute adults and put students in there. Yes. Really ground our classrooms and the way that you’re grounding. Are you suggesting in your book and what you just highlighted, grounding that could be a part of the organizational strategy to create coherence?
Dr. Shaun Nelms
Yeah. So then when they get the hardware, they’re ready for it. Absolute. And there’s nothing more frustrating than to be given something that should work and you can’t get it to work right. And the first thing that you say is what’s not me is what they gave me is the hardware, right? And so, you know, often our plans don’t get implemented because people don’t understand the why. Right. Right. You know, and they label right to the how. And I think that’s very dangerous. I think our leaders have a a community of learners that are stuck in the how yeah. Then those systems don’t last. I would much rather spend the time developing the why and understanding the why and unpacking the why. So when we get to the how, people can then take their own individual talents and skills and be able to teach to process in ways that make the how work, make the hardware work and so I think that’s that’s a critical misstep in education is you know, we have the the pressure on one hand and say if I don’t do it now, these kids are going to fail. Right? Right. So I have to just like I had to push through this to get to the kids right now. But that’s looking at it through a myopic lens. Like this is just my kids are this second grade class. And I said earlier, we think about it on a continuum, then we give ourselves some space and grace to say, I know I didn’t cover this critical skill. And second, but because I know that continuum in third grade, they’re going to have five weeks on this. And when I passed this student on to the next grade level over there, within our system, a continuum, it’s my responsibility to say, here are the critical skills these kids do not do well on. And could you please emphasize this when you start? Don’t assume they know it. They didn’t get it at the end of second grade. But if you think about it on a continuum, it creates an opportunity for the information sharing and a habit from year to year, teacher to teacher, administrator to administrator. And so are you talking about the academic journey of a student? You think about my pre-K to 12th grade continuum, then the school system itself can say we serve this child. Well, that’s a little right. You can’t say that if a kid has a great second or third grade year because the individual teacher and there is no systemic plan and then it goes off the rails fifth through sixth, seventh, that kid’s dropping out at nine. And then you say it’s because that ninth grade teacher, 20, said well enough. That’s unfair. The system set that kid up for failure. From the moment they stop having a highly effective teacher. That’s when the failure began, not when the teacher at end had to pick up the pieces. So that that’s I think that’s important for us to think about on that continuum. I mean, that’s where you establish that excellence loop. Absolutely. It’s cyclical, right? Year after year is intentional, right? It’s not performative, right? It’s not where yeah, where a great school district is not saying that we’re good. It’s proven that we’re good by the outcomes of our students and our staff and their feeling of a connection and commitment to the work that they’ve been tasked to do. And that’s what that interpersonal accountability comes in.
Dr. Michael Conner
Extraordinary articulation of it, Dr. Nelms. I tell you, those micro tenants, specifically when we bring up the excellence level setting purposes, absolutely that continuum. I concur with you 1,000% because what you just described up to now is what I like to say. Daniel Connamen’s work around system one. System two. Mm hmm. Yeah, it’s the one that 5% how that’s like that increases in your is that system’s to think and perfectly describe that to my audience please rewind that last statement or the sentiments that Dr. Nelms highlighted because again it is a fundamental shift when we think about transformation, not from the systems. One lens of drowning hardware or where the expected output is going to be, this acceleration of student achievement or student outcomes. But that systems two lens around this level of creative organizational coherence. Focusing on the software piece. I can’t wait to dig into your book, Matt, and then reference it back and forth. You know, we got a lot more large being covered now. You don’t continue to read that book Now why have you got like four days a week?
Dr. Shaun Nelms
But it’s relatively so. It’s funny, you know, I joked I was it in my head. I’m like, I gave way too many words. This is how we talk at lunch. So. So if you are listening to this podcast, this is not performative.This is how Mike and I get down. This is just, we sit we’re going to have a little something to drink on the side. We’re going to talk about the work, right? And it’s in a way that like so sharpens. I mean, literally, I got your book as somebody pitching in next day, my feet up really get in notes all over it. Right? It’s just it is it is an incredible book that makes you think outside of what we’ve been taught in your traditional teacher programs administrator program, you is not what you would typically see. And a conference that you attend. Right. Like this is a different level of thinking, but I think it’s aligned with where our kids already are. Absolutely. Like your book, being intentional is is a critical first word, right? Be critical. That means that means that there’s thought behind what you’re at is right. It’s not reactionary. Being bold means that we are in a system that was created by people who are still in it. And so you are going to create massive waves when you try to change it. Absolutely. So being both requires you to be able to lose something in an effort to change it. So don’t lose your soul in that process. Being losing your soul is not being bold. That’s being compliant. Right, right, right, right. That’s not that is not in our DNA. We are not passive people, you know? Right, Right. Unapologetic. That means you’re coming and being authentic. Exactly. I’m going to be who I am when you hire me. Exactly. And when you fire me.
Dr. Michael Conner
Exactly that, it delves I into the podcast. Because right before I got to know, say intentional, both and unapologetic and given the theoretical meanings that underpinnings of that role, I appreciate. And yes, to my audience, this is what we do. We we go to lunch. We’re there probably for about 2 hours long, going cool. And we are talking about every aspect of education because what they say sharpens sharpness. Yeah, I mean, literally, you know, I learned so much from Dr. Nelms, man. I mean, just sit in there, just just talk, and the next thing you know. Oh, we got to go, man. I’ll call you later. We’ll talk it. Dr. Nelms, it’s an absolute honor, an absolute honor to be a founding member of upstate New York ABSE with you. My brother is starting this. You know, it was was something that we always talked about. Now, you know, getting it out here, finally having having a charter in place and really getting the work done. You myself, along with eight other founding members looking to expand that, that’s going to be great work, right? We have a lot of new work, a lot of good work to do with naps as they support us. But a previous guest on VFE, Christina Kishimoto, somebody We love, we love that. That’s right. Presented a strong, albeit truly notion that national organizations must do more for educators and leaders that are facing immense polarization in their district. What is your stance regarding national, state and local organizations supporting these leaders, even when they transition out of the executive role? If this is going to be the new normalization in education or for organized nations at the local, state and national level, how can they deepen their work when leaders are not the quote unquote hot ticket of the time of their timeframe?
Dr. Shaun Nelms
I mean, I think that that quote is is so time, because so many of us, like myself, like yourself, realize that some of the pressure and stress that happens in P-12 schools is becoming education, becoming so aligned with politics that we’re no longer CEOs of school systems. We are CEOs of the political analysts, school systems, local politicians. The job somehow the kids will continue to get lost in that process. Teaching and learning will continue. Get lost in that process. So I would say national organizations must reintroduce the purpose of schools, reintroduce the purpose of why we’re here. We’re here to create the next generation of thinkers and doers. Well, and anytime that the adults limits what they’re thinking, i.e. called responsive education, i.e., you know what, however those things are within those state concepts, then we are limiting what they’re thinking. The moment that adults get in the way and start to dictate what should be happening in schools or limiting what they’re doing. So our job is to not indoctrinate kids into doing anything but to give them a well-rounded education. It prepares them to answer a world in which every way they see that and what’s happening from a political standpoint is that we are limiting what kids are thinking and doing, and there’s no other voice, i.e. national organizations that are creating a sustainable social and transformative narrative around this work. So when I think about the national organizations, you take one that it’s just the organization that represents all superintendents in the country, right? When they shy away from college, you may shy away from the conversation around culture course, responsive or anti-racism education because some of their constituents are in states where that’s not popular, then that’s a problem. Because by not saying anything, you’re limiting the states that are ready to take on those conversations. So national resources, they have to be bold. They got to be willing to lose something. If that means a small percentage of members, we have to know what they stand for before we start to sign up and follow them. There are organizations that I no longer give my membership to because they have not taken a strong stance on anti-racism. Well, if it’s something that they around and they talk around, I’m not trying to give my $300 or $400 a year. You to that organization for them not to take on the issues that matter most to me and my school community. Absolutely. So I’m not saying we have to create these siloed communities or these siloed conferences, these siloed, you know, organizations. But we have to we have to be we have to hold these organizations, you know, feet to the fire and say, you know, to what extent are you really positioning yourself to protect your members in ways like a union, to protect your members and ways as they fight for what’s right and just within their school systems?
Dr. Michael Conner
So they and Dr. Nelms perfectly stated, because, you know, Dr. Kishimoto, she elaborated on the same, same, same concept that you presented where national organizations has to take a stance when they take that stance on specifically some of the organizations around the country taking that stance with equity when it comes to this level of anti marginalization and anti-racism in schools. Yes, there’s going to be a few members that are going to lead that organization. But you’re taking a critical stance for the dominant population, which is 54% of our students are black or brown. Right. Well, we have to be able to take those critical stance, those critical stances around some of the most contentious topics that we’re seeing in education and unapologetically so. Dr. Nelms. Last question, brother. Yes, sir. Last question, take it as it is. Everybody answers this question. They go beyond the three word limit. So some education leaders that I know that we know, right? They they follow the rule, which they go to break the rules. They go, it is brother, what? Three words do you want today’s audience to leave our podcast with regarding leadership, equity and innovation?
Dr. Shaun Nelms
Hmm. No single heroic figure, that’s four.
Dr. Michael Conner
I got it, I got it. Right. Elaborate, please. It’s, it’s all right, it’s all right. Man, listen. I had some guests up here with three times 3000 words.
Dr. Shaun Nelms
I you know, I get it right. What I mean by no single heroic figure is that leadership is actionable. It involves the input of many. And I think it really starts with the foundational investment in the why. Why are we doing this work? You know, what is our into the outcomes? And then you move into the how and the you monitor those outcomes. And I think that is critically important. You can’t do that alone. Like, like, like the real story. The root causes will never be unpacked. If you’re the only one telling the story. You need students, former students, teachers, former teachers, administrators to really give you the historical context of why you’re in a situation that you’re in. Schools don’t sell because they’re designed. Schools don’t fail because of because they want to fail. They say, oh, because there were historic decisions that were made or decision made historically that minimize their ability to be bold and to be unapologetic and to be intentional. So you got to first know what those asks. You know, you have to ask the question, what happened instead of what’s wrong? You ask what happened. It gives you historical context of the environment. You ask what’s wrong? You really are only talking about the now.
Dr. Michael Conner
And Dr. Nelms, I appreciate that. You know, especially when you said leadership is actionable and it is completely true. And to my audience, I think that, you know, there was a lot of lot of great information, ideas, methodologies, tactics that were that was presented here. But take this right investment and the why and monitoring the how. Right. I think that we have there’s a over separation the how but forgetting the why. So if we just take that the Y to the how that’s like the old foundational switch from the over there relevance framework. Right. Rigor relevance relationships working out relationships relevance that will lead to rigor, the why and best, and then the why will lead to this. How of defining excellence, innovation, leadership and equity in our schools. Dr. Shaun Nelms, it is an absolute honor. Pleasure to have you on VFE. I’m selfish. I got you about 10 minutes away so I’m going to happy about that. But to my audience that did announce if they want to get in touch with you, how would they be able to do that?
Dr. Shaun Nelms
Yeah, I’m on Twitter at @DrNelms. Also, my consulting group is www.nelmsconsultinggroup.com as part of the best way to follow what I’m doing. But on Twitter, I’m active on there, always posting positives, things like the work that you’re doing and some of our other colleagues. But I’m not hard to find. I can just say, Google me. I’m not hard to find.
Dr. Michael Conner
And to my audience, if you come up to Rochester to see Dr. Nelms, come on over, I’m about 10 minutes away.
Dr. Shaun Nelms
If you want, if you want a two hour lunch and hear us talk back and forth, then come join us, come join us.
Dr. Michael Conner
Dr. Nelms, it is an absolute pleasure. I know I’m going to see you probably next week or the week after we go to finalize something to get together. Congratulations on the book, sincerely. I cannot wait to dig in that now that you have my book and I’m going to be reading your book, we might be together for about four or 5 hours. That’s right. That’s right. Thanks so much, Dr. Nelms. And on that note, onward and upward everybody. Have a great evening.
