Before the AI Pilot, There Is a Question You Must Answer

Michael Conner: [00:00:00] Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to another episode of Voices for Excellence. I am your host, Dr. Michael Conner, CEO and founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group, co founder of AEG Systems, and of course, the proud host of VFE. And today's guest, it's been three years in the making. So I, I wanna give you a story of how Daniel and I met, and then it became the evolution of everybody knows the Agile Diagnostic and AI platform and AEG Systems.

Michael Conner: So about three years ago, no, four, four years ago, right, Daniel? Or is it three, four? 

Daniel Crook: Three. 

Michael Conner: Three. It's about three. Time, time flies, man. So three years ago, this is, this is classic, and I'll tell you, I, I, I would say, A, it was, you know, a blessing in disguise that God had us meet, and then two, just a little luck.

Michael Conner: So just like the New York Knicks in, in, [00:01:00] in game four. But I was in... We, we were at EdTech Week, and I saw the line. And at first I wasn't gonna wait. So I said, okay. So I left the site that we were at, and I was just about to hit for Uber, and just about to hit my Uber, and then literally I saw the lunch place that I wanted to go to was in Midtown And the Uber ride, no lie, and everybody can laugh, it was about $50.

Michael Conner: No lie, $50. And I was like, "You know what? I am not going to pay $50 just to get down and then to get back probably within 90 minutes or so." So I said, "I'll tough it out and I'll wait in line." So I went back upstairs, and as I went back upstairs, the line was going around for lunch, was going around the corner, and I got in line, and guess who was in front of me?

Michael Conner: Mr. Daniel Crook. So everybody knows how I am, and I just said, "Hey, we got a [00:02:00] long line. We might as well talk, get to know each other." And that's where Daniel and I started to talk, and then Daniel started to unpack his expertise. And every... And, and a concept and an idea that I had in my head, floating in my head, I'm like, "Oh my God, this guy can potentially do it."

Michael Conner: So I said, "Hey, Daniel, you know, I, I really have this crazy idea of developing AI around change management and continuous improvement with my research. Could you do it?" And without hesitation, Daniel said yes. Now, because of the success, he was at that early startup point. Because of his natural progression and success that within School of Hard Row, what we're gonna talk about, if I had, if I was about three years later, the answer would be absolutely no.

Daniel Crook: But- Three months. Three months. Well, I think you're living- leaving out the point that any software engineer listening will chuckle about, which is the, the classic trope of, "Hey, I've got an idea. You're a software engineer. Let's [00:03:00] go in on it. You build it, I'll be the CEO." And that morning before EdTech Week, you know, I had just started my, my business and I told myself, "Okay, you know, you, we, the business is very early.

Daniel Crook: Don't have a lot of opportunities in my pipeline, so I'm gonna say yes to everything." And so when, you know, and I had no idea who you were, Dr., I didn't realize I was talking to the Michael Conner. I mean, you seemed smart right away. I mean, there was a, an immediate trust, you know. I'd be underselling the conversation if, if I said I just said yes to a complete stranger.

Daniel Crook: But yeah, that's definitely not how You know, things are done now, but very grateful that we, that we just, we bumped into each other in that lunch line 

Michael Conner: Yeah, and that's why I say I'm blessed and very lucky with that, right? And then three years later, Daniel has just been an absolute, absolutely amazing partner to me.

Michael Conner: You know, we have come up with the concept where now we have the Agile [00:04:00] Diagnostic and AI platform that's being level set across the country. We have some really new pretty cool partnerships that are on the horizon for the '26, '27 academic year. But that is just a small slither of what Daniel has accomplished within the education ecosystem.

Michael Conner: He has one of the most successful edtech companies in School Harbor, where this is how you know you're successful, when you matriculate out of being the CEO to just only a board member. Okay? So I think that right there is some mic drop stuff. And then also he advises edtech companies and early startups and founders across the country.

Michael Conner: The guy is busy. I think it's harder to get in touch with Daniel than Barack Obama. But no, it is an absolute honor to have my friend, my co-founder, my partner in crime in this education vertical, Mr. Daniel Crook, who is the founder of SchoolHarbor, and also the co-founder of AEG Systems, and then [00:05:00] is involved in a myriad of different edtech, edtech focuses across the country.

Michael Conner: So I'm, uh, Daniel, I'm probably understating what your accomplishments are now, what you're doing now, but it is absolutely an honor to have you on Voices for Excellence 

Daniel Crook: No, and thanks for having me. I know we've been talking about doing this for a while, and you're ... I, I would say that you're more difficult to, to reach than I am in terms of your schedule.

Daniel Crook: And so between our schedules, it's, it's really great we found this time. 

Michael Conner: Absolutely. Daniel, great to have you on. And Daniel, I wanna jump right into this because, you know, if I've known you for three years, we've talked a lot. We've seen each other a lot over the course of three years. You, your wonderful wife Letty, who is probably one of the best UX designers in the country, and then also with your school Harvard team as well.

Michael Conner: But Daniel, as a successful edtech company founder, co-founder of AEG Systems with that crazy guy, Dr. Michael Conner, and a strategic advisor to many, [00:06:00] Daniel, you're such an influencer in a variety of different verticals. But for those that don't know Mr. Daniel Crooke, and I'm very interested too in this, what song describes your leadership signature in the ecosystem?

Daniel Crook: You know what's funny about this? Did, did you know I was a music major? 

Michael Conner: Yes, I did. 

Daniel Crook: And a career, a career violinist. So I actually put a lot of thought into this, and this question stumped me. So I'm actually gonna have to answer this with John Cage's Four Minutes and 33 Seconds. 

Michael Conner: Oh, wow. 

Daniel Crook: Do you know this piece of music?

Daniel Crook: This is actually like a little music history lesson for those listening. Um, it's a piece by a modern composer named John, John Cage, where for four minutes and 33 seconds he comes out to the piano, he sits down, he doesn't do anything And then is silent for four minutes and 33 seconds, and then walks off the stage.

Daniel Crook: And so this is my not answer answer, 'cause I could not come up with a piece of music to describe, [00:07:00] describe my, my space. You know, I took the question very seriously. But I figured this would be an interesting moment to give you a creative not answer, and also let you know about one of the strangest pieces written in the last 100 years.

Daniel Crook: Very controversial piece of music that is, is it music, is it not? It's, you know, the sound of the audience, it's the coughing, it's the sort of tension and confusion of coming to a music concert and four minutes and 33 seconds hearing nothing but your own breath, and maybe somebody's cellphone going off.

Daniel Crook: Um, so that's my answer. 

Michael Conner: So D- Daniel, w- I find that compelling, right? Because when I put now, 'cause I always like to tie this back into education, and y- 40, uh, John Cage is four minutes and 33 seconds. And when I hear that, the sound of the audience, the cellphone, breathing, micro conversations that are going on in there, right?[00:08:00] 

Michael Conner: When I think about that context in itself, have we truly as educational leaders, as advisors, as ed tech CEOs, have we really truly had that silent landscape understanding of who we're serving, right? I mean, there could be a variety of different perspectives that you can take on this, but really just, you know, understanding, uh, who's in that landscape, understanding our students, knowing them, just watching them.

Michael Conner: But also too, if you think about that, you know, from an audience perspective, looking at John Cage just sit there for four minutes and 33 seconds, I think about leadership presence, right? Where now you are establishing that presence where that is the art of music. That is where now that presence, even though it's silence, there's so much, th- th- there- there's, there's music from a variety and a diversity of different facets that are [00:09:00] going on simultaneously.

Michael Conner: Daniel, I knew that you were going to identify something that is much of an outlier, but brings such of a deep meaning when it comes to your leadership signature. And you're right about that, because Daniel, your presence is felt in the vertical within the ecosystem. And Daniel, you do not say much, I can tell you that.

Michael Conner: But it is, it is impactful though. 

Daniel Crook: I think it's about, I, and I, I think you're, it's, it's interesting how I think you've captured a lot of, you know, how that piece is like interpreted, which is, you know, the, the stage and the audience even just from like percentage of the total volume of space in a theater.

Daniel Crook: Like y- y- you know, I think John Cage is showing Everyone that their presence is part of the performance. I mean, it- 

Michael Conner: Mm ... 

Daniel Crook: think about, like, a bizarre so- like, a triangle solo, that was, like, the audience solo, right? The audience gets to sort of be the sounds. Yeah, so that's [00:10:00] my, that's my answer. If I come up with something, like, you know- 

Michael Conner: Oh, wow.

Daniel Crook: That- More, that, that has a little bit more, more sound, I'll let you know. 

Michael Conner: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I like that because, Daniel, this is probably the quote of this question. Their presence is a part of the performance, and when I think about the ecosystem and the various verticals that are integrated and interfaced with one another, that makes education in totality, everybody's presence is a part of the performance, which the performance is obviously impacting the lives of our constituents.

Michael Conner: But Daniel, School Harbor, right? Three years ago, wow. I mean, just congratulations on your transition now to just being a part of the board and a founder of School Harbor. Shout out to Jared, who has became the new, who has become the new CEO. An amazing, amazing group. And to my audience, this is objective and subjective that please, anything that you need from a technological standpoint, [00:11:00] anything that you need to be able to support your data infrastructure, anything pertaining to that architecture, School Harbor, that full team, the reason why I know that full team is because of course, they are helping and they continuously help leverage the agile diagnostic and AI platform.

Michael Conner: But Daniel, right now, School Harbor is truly positioned as an influencer in the educational ecosystem. But through the lens of a successful founder of an ed tech company, Daniel, what do you see now as the biggest misalignment between what is being developed in ed tech? You and I had these conversations before.

Michael Conner: I even heard you talk about this at various conferences in our small groups too, but what is the biggest misalignment that you see of what is being developed in ed tech and what is actually needed in our learning organizations and classrooms for, again, the people that we support, our most important customers who are Generation Alpha and Beta?

Daniel Crook: [00:12:00] Yeah. Well- And that's a really great question, and I'm gonna frame my answer around early companies because, you know, that's really where my specialty lies. And I think I wanna answer this with two-- like talk about two things in this question. I think one of the things that-- where there's like misalignment would be what we're-- I think we're building a lot.

Daniel Crook: I think that the ratio of student-facing tools and learn-- like tools for learning, I think that we're, you know, I think that that is a very like saturated space, and I think that not enough attention is given to more administrative problems. And I think that there's a lot of opportunity for folks to help schools reduce the burden of their back office to make, not, not just to, to save [00:13:00] keystrokes, um, but to actually do that while improving business intelligence that helps leaders make faster, more robust decisions.

Daniel Crook: So there's a lot of like disjunct tools in the classroom, on campuses, and that information isn't aggregating successfully to that administrative unit, be it a district office or a, you know, a, a charter school leader, small or large. I think that, and especially in an age of, you know, where AI is this emerging, fast-developing technology, it's never been more important to have- Great, easy-to-use data for that, for that purpose.

Daniel Crook: And so I think, I think a lot of folks are still... And, and, and I don't, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, but I think there's so [00:14:00] much focus on building tools for learners, and I think there's, there could be a lot more focus on building tools for at the operational level. I also think that when it comes to the approach of building, I think in general, a lot of early founders kind of run with their first idea and don't-- There's not a lot.

Daniel Crook: I think much more attention could be paid at the be- pre-build ideation. Like, before you start prototyping, like, I'll talk to a lot of folks who are thinking about building in the space, and they haven't done enough time talking to leaders. I think it's actually one of the things that's made, you know, our work with the Agile Diagnostic Platform as successful as it's been, is that before we started building, you know, Dr.

Daniel Crook: Conner, you've, you've talked to the superintendent user that we serve exhaustively before, before I started [00:15:00] typing a single line of code. Um, and so that is something I think that as people are thinking about building solutions, even if you're a district administrator yourself building an internal tool for your team, I think maybe this is a pretend stat, this is a heuristic, but maybe one in 50 people in an administrative role have started by coding.

Daniel Crook: You know, I'm, I'm talking to a lot. There's a, every-- And, and this is, you know, before AI, there have still been, I think people don't know this, that development, software development tools have been progressively making the barrier to developing software easier and easier. Like we saw this with the cloud, right?

Daniel Crook: The cloud technologies made it easier for developers to develop software in the same way that AI is. And so every time that barrier to entry gets- You know, easier and easier. We have more people who are fundamentally builders entering the space. And so some, you know, I've been spending a lot of time [00:16:00] talking to folks who are, you know, are business leaders and experts who are now like, "Hey, I just spent the last 90 hours on Lovable or Replit, and I'm enjoying this building."

Daniel Crook: Um, and so I think, you know, there's a, there's a lot of, there's a lot of opportunity before you start building. Like, even if you're building in that way in your district with those tools, to still, a- as much as an expert as you are, to still have those conversations with the people who you expect to be using your application.

Daniel Crook: I think, I think that will solve a, that'll save people a lot of time, effort, money, and could be the difference between building a successful company and going down a direction that won't, won't serve you as a early builder or early entrepreneur. 

Michael Conner: Yeah. I think that's the 101 of what you s- stated, Daniel, because, one, A, thank you for acknowledging that.

Michael Conner: And I think because of the many conversations you've had with [00:17:00] leaders across the country, you and I in our intimate conversations, is that you see this oversaturation of specific tools at the classroom level. But I always say, how do we now create that alignment or that equilibrium of this oversaturation of classroom tools, but how do we now have t- uh, leaders to be able to utilize specific tools that can be in alignment with what is being implemented at the classroom level?

Michael Conner: Improving business intelligence. I think that, Daniel, you know, when you stated that, that has to be a, a rooted principle within any learning organization or within any executive leader that is in the education ecosystem, where I don't think, Daniel, and I don't know the percentile of it or the percentage of it, but I don't think enough business intelligence [00:18:00] with regards to variety of different data sets and really creating those specific implications via through their BI application within their districts is not happening enough.

Michael Conner: And then, Daniel, also too, you know, I always say that there's these structural gaps. You know, one, and we can allude on this question, is that- A, because of how our technological and information infrastructures are built, and there's immense silos between whether it be dashboards or even sometimes in management systems, do we even have the internal systems to have high level, high quality AI that goes on in, in the schools as well?

Michael Conner: So I think that the, for early, early entrepreneurs and early edtech founders, this is a re- uh, this go-- please go back to this question or to Daniel's answer because I [00:19:00] think that now if you're really trying to look for and solve administrative problems and issues, I think that's where now we can start alleviating that oversaturation that Daniel's talking about.

Michael Conner: And then also too, understanding what the core problem is and the needs, as Daniel highlighted before, at that pre-built stage where that now leads to the edtech founder with time, efficiency, and money with that. But Daniel, on to the next question as well. I wanna ask you to unpack this question from an asset mindset lens, right?

Michael Conner: We, you know, we see a lot in education a deficit mindset lens as it's underscored, but I want you to focus this or focus your response on, from this asset mindset lens. But for edtech companies, early edtech companies, early founders, how do you see technology kind of going back to your response for the second question.

Michael Conner: How do you see technology solving operational and structural challenges [00:20:00] that we see in education? Right? Let me just give you an example. Um, an operational structural challenge or quandary that I used to face is I wanted to create that integrated, synergistic infrastructure architecture where now I'm looking at diverse data sets so I can have that business intelligence perspective so that now I can be able to pilot or experiment with specific continuous improvement cycles, this iterative phases.

Michael Conner: That, uh, Daniel, that does not exist because of how the, the operating model is designed in education. But how can it solve immediate and learn- long-term issues so that learning organizations and executives and superintendents are aligned to the rapid economic shifts and demands we're encountering now in our everyday lives?

Daniel Crook: There are, I, I think schools, school systems, educational entities tend to be slow [00:21:00] adopters of technology And, you know, uh, you think about there was a time where school, not every school, you know, an SIS, right? And now every school must have an SIS. And, you know, I think the data warehouse is the, the sort of

Daniel Crook: I think a lot of people are talking about AI right now. Like, it's AI everything. And I, I don't think enough attention is the, you know, there's the fundamentals, the boring stuff that makes AI truly impactful and effective. And so I think if you're a educational leader, you're a site-based leader, you're a district leader, if you, you know, if you're thinking about leveraging, you know, new AI systems, I think the first question you need to ask yourself is, "Do I have a data warehouse?"

Daniel Crook: Um, because that's the foundation of [00:22:00] n- even, even beyond AI, just having interoperability in your own software ecosystem. You know, there's a lot of attention at schools, you know, around-- And I think this is totally right. I mean, I think we-- I am amazed and I am so impressed with every single educator, principal, IT administrator during COVID, the rapid digital transformation.

Daniel Crook: I mean, it's unbelievable. The, the-- I mean, it is, it's honestly w- it, it's patriotic to me, just... And it's, it's one of the things that brought me , you know, because I was working in big tech at the time. I had to leave education to, to work in the highest echelons of, of software engineering. But what brought me back to education was the pandemic.

Daniel Crook: It was that push to move everything online overnight. And I think a lot of school, you know, money [00:23:00] was made available so schools could do this as effectively as possible, and, you know, schools were adopting anything and everything they could. And now they, the- there's a-- we've done a lot of work with schools in trying to go, "Okay, how mu- what are you pay-" You know, it's kind of like when your, your, your Netflix subscriptions and your, and your streaming services kind of you s- you've got too many of them to even watch, and you go backwards and say, okay, you prune your own personal subscriptions.

Daniel Crook: I think if schools aren't doing that, they should be, and they are, right? Going, "Okay, are we really u-" You know, they're assessing whether or not they're really using them. They're looking at the efficacy and, and we've done a lot of work there. But the next step of that is the interoperability between those tools.

Daniel Crook: You know, there, there's a lot, there's definitely some vendor and provider accountability. The software providers need to, to make their tools more interoperable. But I also think, and, and we don't talk about this, and I say this with all due respect, that, you know, school systems [00:24:00] have a bit more responsibility for making their data more actionable as well.

Daniel Crook: So I think it's, I, I think that it's very inexcusable on the vendor side to, to have limited interoperability. But I think that as we get further into this digital age that we're in- The-- it's no longer a one-sided vendors must make this interoperable. I think it's a-- I think, I think school leaders, especially on the IT side, you know, are becoming part of the...

Daniel Crook: And, and the tool, you know, AI tools are making this more possible for people who are highly technical. Maybe they didn't learn co- you know, I'm thinking about like the, the network administrator who-- And, and there's no, you know, five years ago, a network administrator, you know, writing and connecting software systems wasn't always a guarantee.

Daniel Crook: But I think now as systems become more interoperable and these folks have access to more knowledge [00:25:00] and even, you know, agentic flows through code, I think, you know, developing that internal software ecosystem, it should revolve around a, a data warehouse. And so for schools that, you know, have more than a few thousand students, and even for schools that don't, you know, if you don't have a data warehouse, I think, I think it's imperative because I think there's gonna be a rush.

Daniel Crook: Like once, once truly agentic AGI becomes more available, more developed, you don't wanna be caught without the, the infrastructure you need to support that future 

Michael Conner: Well stated. To my audience, Daniel, we use this Voices for Excellence as a professional learning tool, asynchronous, that's focused on heterogogy, self-directed learning, right?

Michael Conner: Obviously, the adult learning sciences of that. And to my audience, this is an answer that I want you to play back [00:26:00] because Daniel stated this word eight times, and to me it is an educational imperative in education as we are in this AC2035 state. And Daniel, of course, you know about the AC state of education now moving to AC2035.

Michael Conner: The word to my audience that Daniel stated is interoperability. And Daniel, I didn't learn about the processes of interoperability or what the definition of interoperability was until I went to my business analytics program and went through that trajectory. And this was in the BC stage of education.

Michael Conner: This was before COVID. And I think that now we're starting to adopt specific vocabulary in the education ecosystem where now interoperability is a necessity in order to advance and [00:27:00] accelerate organizat- learning organizational goals and objectives. To my viewers and to my audience, Daniel stated this, and it's vital if we truly want to make data actionable, right?

Michael Conner: And Daniel is absolutely correct that data was not as actionable in the BC stage of education, even at the outset of the AC stage of education, because our systems did not have the necessary functionality for interoperability. Now we have these processes that can be implemented within our learning organizations so that now that data is connected.

Michael Conner: But Daniel, for level setting purposes for my audience, could you define what interoperability looks like within a data warehouse so that they can be able to have a simplified conceptual visualization of what that looks like? 

Daniel Crook: Yeah. And I think I wanna answer the [00:28:00] question, and I also wanna expand a little bit about the, what a data warehouse is and why-- Because I think the, the sort of traditional wisdom might be, "Let's get a lot of information into our student information system."

Daniel Crook: And while that is definitely one path forward, having more-- having space for your data to live that is truly, that can be defined in a shape or schema of data That perfectly suits analytical and also your bespoke purpose. Meaning when you are using an i- uh, an SIS, that SIS is primarily from a data perspective designed to support the functionality and [00:29:00] workflows that you use your SIS for.

Daniel Crook: And while reporting is an important feature, reporting is different than data storage, analytics, a- and warehousing. They're, they're d- it's, they, they are, they are neighbors, they are cousins, but they are different. And- 

Michael Conner: I'm glad you're, I'm glad you're defining this, Daniel, because- 

Daniel Crook: Yeah ... 

Michael Conner: 101 that you're unpacking, there is a lot of unfamiliar or unfamiliarity with this because, again, executive leaders, superintendents, CEOs, CAOs, they do not really get to the depth and breadth of what you're describing.

Michael Conner: Now, truly talking about interoperability, the residual is the chief academic officer's gonna have to work with the CIO or the CTO. When we look at, you know, data that's coming from the SIS, how can we use data from the SIS and academic data, concatenate those data sets for- [00:30:00] Exactly ... business intelligence.

Michael Conner: So this- Exactly ... is the point that you're doing this, Daniel. And, and 

Daniel Crook: having the right place to store that, right? Like, technically you could create custom tables in your PowerSchool instance and put HRS data in there. But it's, it's not, it's not the perfect storage solution. It's the same way that I could put, I could technically put my silverware, you know, in the cupboard over, you know, not the actual dedicated silverware.

Daniel Crook: So you need dedicated space to store your data. It also, it, it also means that you have less dependencies on these systems, meaning if you were to invest so heavily in your student information system, which isn't necessarily the worst place to put your investment, if you ever wanted to change, make an adjustment, you, you, you, you risk, you, you risk that, all that work that's gone into that classification where if you have a dedicated space...

Daniel Crook: You know, we're at a point now we're having a dedicated space [00:31:00] for your data that is agnostic of the systems you use. That, that's, that's very, that's becoming more, that became a nice to ha- it was a nice to have and is becoming more and more of a necessity. And- S- so, so that is... So, so that's becoming, becoming very, very critical.

Daniel Crook: A- and it enables you to do so much more with your data, and you're not limited to the bounds of the systems that you work, that you work with every day. Um, and then, and it's not tied to, like, you know, your operational systems, their primary purpose should be operations, and your analytics system, its primary purpose should be analytics, data retention, and storage.

Daniel Crook: It, it... I, I think, I think, you know, in the next five years or decade it will be, it will... You know, I think it would feel really silly if a front office didn't have a copier. I think, I think that it will be just as [00:32:00] silly to not have a data warehouse, I think. And, and, and, you know, and for the schools that I work with where we've implemented data wa- warehouses, it, it's, uh, it is at that level of if, if a front office didn't have a copier, they would be in trouble.

Daniel Crook: And I, and I think in the same vein for schools that have, you know, implemented those tools, they're finding that same level. It, it's remarkable. And, and from, from a cost savings perspective, I mean, w- well, some of the work I'm very proud of that I did some years ago working with a school system that had two data analysts that a good chunk of their work was exporting data from different systems, getting them into spreadsheets, running fragile macros, and getting data to the leadership team.

Daniel Crook: We implemented a data warehouse and an ETL pipeline which was enabled by interoperability of those systems. That interoperability meaning the ability to grab data outside of a system's workflow, so like [00:33:00] from an API or a data export. So we automated a lot of that work together and upskilled those analysts so they were able to support that automation instead of the manual work they were doing The, the, the, the long story short is that the process not only got more real time and more accurate, but then it freed up 80 hours of technical time from these folks every week, and that enabled them to build a suite of over 100.

Daniel Crook: They got to work directly with their district leaders to then say, "What do you wanna know right now?" And then start, start developing exactly that, like region-specific, school system-specific reporting, because they weren't spending their time doing what the data warehouse could do. And when you have that data warehouse, the data is stored in a way where you don't have to check it every time [00:34:00] because it's automatic.

Daniel Crook: You know, it is, it is in a stable, stored state. And so now the, the, this team was able to focus their time on moving the needle f- not maintaining the status quo, but moving that needle forward. And it, it was very, it's-- the, the work was, it was very productive for that team. It was very cost-saving for that team, and it improved their operational excellence 

Michael Conner: Absolutely.

Michael Conner: Daniel, where were you when I was a leader? Because A, you're eliminating fragmentation. B, you're creating what I like to say shared operational efficiencies and efficacy. You're defining what efficacy look like from that context. And then the data becomes real time that's automated. Wow. Just imagine if leaders have that time that can be repurposed where now it can accelerate academic outcomes, it can accelerate teacher capacity, and then also too having that real time [00:35:00] dynamic of being iterative within the prototype of the model.

Michael Conner: Daniel, wow, that, that is just, just absolutely phenomenal. I just can't wait, Daniel, wait until we actually have this level of real time data that can be operationalized in a IoT form where now interoperability, bringing multiple data sets, and then some of these really complex, dense questions that we're trying to solve for would be much easier for the leaders as well.

Michael Conner: But Daniel, I wanna jump into when learning organizations, when they wanna start modernizing, because we talked about the fragmentation, you know, of, uh, data with architecture within our schools and everything, but I wanna talk about the digital footprint, right? And right now I think that there are this, there's this level of sy- systems tension that inhibits interoperability of what we were talking about.

Michael Conner: So if we know that we have these inherent systems or structural tensions that prevent interoperability [00:36:00] from entering the educational landscape, kind of like this level set universal dynamic, if I was a leader, Daniel, what are the non-negotiables for me from an architectural foundations standpoint? What is actually required to make it scalable?

Michael Conner: But moreover, how can I now look at these tensions and address them so that my learning organization become ready for this digital ecosystem that we're talking about around transformation? 

Daniel Crook: What is non-negoti- I mean, I, I can speak to like as an engineer, I'm gonna get all technical about what, I mean, I think- There's always the level of what are non-negotiables?

Daniel Crook: I think these are 99% of the time non-negotiables. Sometimes I've seen folks adopt tools that aren't interoperable in the slightest. They are going against the grain of that footprint, that, that ecosystem that this school system has [00:37:00] spent time pruning and caring for. Um, but, but I think there are a few things that can really just reduce friction immediately from a product.

Daniel Crook: And I'm also gonna put a caveat in here. I'm not gonna get into cybersecurity right now. I think that's a gi- that needs to be a given, and I think for, for leaders and decision makers, that's well understood. Um, 

Michael Conner: so yeah. And Dan, and be- and before you go on, shout out to Julia Fallon. Her report that came out of SETDA, it was the number one focus or number one concern, I believe it was cybersecurity that kind of tookin- uh, taken over.

Michael Conner: The number one focus was around AI. So absolutely, Dan, I'm glad you brought cybersecurity up. 

Daniel Crook: Yeah. It's a, uh, and, and I bring it up just to say it is a number one concern, so no need to just, I mean, we would w- wanna just have a whole other- podcast to talk about the, the musts of, of [00:38:00] cybersecurity. So we're just caveat there.

Daniel Crook: I mean, I think there's two, two things I think that are-- three things that are really critical to reducing friction. I think one is having a very thoughtful onboarding process and having that rostering piece. If, if you don't have that s- you know, seamless rostering experience, you better be white gloving.

Daniel Crook: And you know this, Dr. Conner, in our work where, you know, when we work with a school system that doesn't have that, you know, doesn't have a system like PowerSchool, that we white glove their onboarding. 'Cause we're not gonna put another task on that back office team that already has way too much going on.

Daniel Crook: Um, so, so I think a great way to reduce friction is through having a great-- So, so as a leader assessing, like what is this, you know, what is the rostering process? Just as importantly, and maybe even more so I would say, [00:39:00] is having a strong SSO, single sign-on option. Uh, for a lot of people that's Clever, for some people that's Google.

Daniel Crook: But having that piece so that, especially if it's a student-facing learning tool, you know, that's a, that's, that's a must-have. And then the final piece I think for reducing-- Uh, a- and these are the things that when, when I was a decision maker, you know, 'cause my background was in schools as well. So schools, big tech, back to schools, started School Harbor.

Daniel Crook: But when I was making these decisions, the three things I looked at was SSO, the rostering experience, obviously the cybersecurity. But then, but then what is my-- 'Cause I didn't even look-- You know, I think a lot of folks will look at the platform and look for feature. Like, like what are, what are the reports that your platform had?

Daniel Crook: Like I did never, I never cared what reports your platform had. I cared can I get 100% of my data out of your platform into my data warehouse, right? So I think, I think like So having that [00:40:00] ability to easily connect data from that platform into that central, you know, data repository, that data warehouse. I think those are the three critical things for reducing friction, for creating cohesive ecosystem is can, how easy is it for data to go in?

Daniel Crook: How easy is it for data to go out? And how easy is it to sign in? 

Michael Conner: Absolutely. And, and you know what? When I listen to you unpack this, Daniel, you just make it so sound so simple. And how can we, how come universally we can't adopt this, you know, simultaneously? But I agree 100% that SSO, right? And when we talk about SSO in, in cybersecurity, it's kind of your non-negotiables.

Michael Conner: We have a tendency, Daniel, that we just wanna jump in as opposed to really looking at the foundations to create those conditions to really go into your data warehouse. Do we have the SSO and the processes that are embedded in it so [00:41:00] that 100%, you know, we're not focusing on the reports, but we wanna make sure 100% of the data can be transferable into the data warehouse as well.

Michael Conner: That kind of goes back to now that business intelligence around the analytics, which is so critical with that, and then the rostering experience. Daniel, even though it, you know, in, when I'm putting my hat, my, my, my old executive leader hat on, you know, when I hear rostering experience, I'm like, "Oh, you know, that's just a simple rostering, you know, within the actual, you know, infrastructure itself or the architecture itself."

Michael Conner: But Daniel, can you just elaborate on, and you taught me this, why is it so important or why that rostering process is such a rooted foundation to have the success of what you were talking about within your last answer? 

Daniel Crook: So let's, let's actually talk about, like the consequences of suboptimal rostering, [00:42:00] and let's, let's do it from the lens of, from a learning tool.

Daniel Crook: Maybe it's a testing software or test prep. And, you know, if your students are, you know, moving between classrooms, are enrolling, un-enrolling, if just one... I mean, if, think about, uh, I mean, if you've, if you've never gone, especially to like first or second grade classroom, you know, if you've never tried to s- if you've never seen 30 seven-year-olds get onto computers, go do that Okay?

Daniel Crook: And so when you-- Just doing that in the p- in a perfect world where you have S. Y- y- do not have an individual user password per set. Oh my goodness, it's seems so simple, but you'd be surprised. And even if you've got like the QR c- and by the way, the QR code, like login for y- you know, the Clever badge, that, that [00:43:00] support that.

Daniel Crook: But so you're, you're in this, you're, you've, you've rolled out a Chromebook cart and you've gotta pass all these out, and you got a lot of these students in. And if your roster's not right, 'cause it's already, it's already challenging and chaotic, and the educator's now thinking, "Oh, this isn't working because this student's account doesn't exist because the rostering failed or the rostering is only, is updated by hand."

Daniel Crook: You know? And then, a- and you don't want your user story to be, "Oh, well that teacher can, can just go log into my platform and then add that student to their classroom." No they're n- what? Like, that's Yeah, it's like going to a restaurant and then the chef saying, "Make your own burger." You know? They can just make their own.

Daniel Crook: If I, if I don't have a patty, they can just make their own, and that's good, right? I mean, you really do need to reduce that friction as much as possible. And you can, you can do that through regularly updated ri- And it doesn't need to be to the second [00:44:00] roster. I mean, even just a daily refresh is, is more than, you know, more than sufficient.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. Absolutely. And Daniel, this is, it, it, it's, it's ... I'm glad that you brought this up, right? And I think that, you know, sometimes, you know, district leaders, they'll tell their stakeholders, they'll tell their leaders, "Hey, make your own burger." You know, there's not enough patties. Yeah. And you know, 

Daniel Crook: that- Just make your own.

Daniel Crook: That's the solution. Just make your own. Yeah. Look, we, we made, we made most, we made 99 out of 100 of the orders. You know what I mean? But then you're leaving a real human student behind. Nothing, nothing displays this more. The, the number one, I help a school system with their dismissal software every year, and I do, I personal- I handle this personally as, as just because it's something that gives me so much heartburn because you do

Daniel Crook: The first day of school is already the first day of school, and, like, you can't, you cannot be [00:45:00] wrong on the dismissal process 'cause nothing is gonna make a parent more concerned or nervous than, "Oh, I don't ... Y- your kid wasn't called. Th- they're in the wrong ... We don't know which classroom they're in." You know what I mean?

Daniel Crook: Like, that kind of thing. And that's just one. I mean, you can be 99.5% accurate, and that one student that has the dismissal issue, you know, it's ... You don't, you just don't wanna be, as somebody who provides software and, and provides those solutions, there, there's just not room for that kind of error. It's, it's, it's

Daniel Crook: Yeah. 

Michael Conner: No, Daniel, this is, this is great. This, this is great. And to my audience again, continue to unpack Daniel's answers and his responses. And I intentionally design and develop these questions because, uh, uh, and I, I, I hear us automatically jumping into this AI [00:46:00] conversation, this adoption AI, you know, mindset.

Michael Conner: But when we think about this from an arrival AI lens, just like how electricity has disrupted our natural environment and lives, and AI from this arrival perspective, we have to unpack it and get down to the foundations. And in order for us to have or to leverage successful AI, exactly what Daniel is presenting, exactly what Daniel is unpacking with his responses, this is the prerequisite or the pretext.

Michael Conner: And for us to be able to have successful AI in this AI centric culture within our learning organizations. And now, Daniel, I'm gonna ask the AI question because we built the foundation, the cognitive foundation, to now start thinking about this AI centric culture other than or in lieu of a culture of using AI tools.

Michael Conner: How [00:47:00] must we approach this? In essence, what you were describing is change management. How much of this approach do we have to underpin change management for operational efficiencies that are human centric? 

Daniel Crook: I think when it comes to approaching AI, staying human centric, I, I use the term AI sobriety, which is both understanding that there's this emergent tool and technology, and it is both powerful and limited, and it is changing and improving.

Daniel Crook: And so I think That having... I think, I think keeping, keeping, you know, there's a lot of folks who are, are rightfully excited about developments in AI. But, but... And as somebody who develops tools that, you know, [00:48:00] integrating AI, when is the appropriate time to use it? What, what is AI in its current state good at?

Daniel Crook: How are we anticipating how it will improve? You know, there were things that we thought would be imp- like streaming movies was something that was inconceivable during dial-up. 

Michael Conner: Right. Right. Right. 

Daniel Crook: Inconceive- not even a... You'd be laughed off the stage if you said that people are gonna get rid of movie DVDs, right?

Daniel Crook: That's just... And, and understand, you know, and, and I think what's brilliant is you look at a company like Netflix that started off as... Netflix is a great example of, like, maybe the antithesis of what people think about when they think about tech. I mean, was, was Netflix really that much of a tech company when they were mailing DVDs?

Daniel Crook: Were, were they? I mean, I think, like, operationally, yes, they were. They were an internet company. They were, you know... But, but, but think about how as the internet changed, and it's not just a software, you know, it's not just [00:49:00] an AI po- it's a hardw- you know, data centers, infrastructure, our supply. You know, this is a global and multifaceted problem, or not problem, but, but development.

Daniel Crook: A- and so, like, all of these Just trying to understand it, like, it- which was fascinating with, with Netflix is it's like they went from sending DVDs to, to completely and fundamentally transforming the entire movie industry, and that's the same company. And I think, so, like, what we're doing with AI, we're at the DVD phase.

Daniel Crook: We're at the dial-up phase And so there's a lot of ... So, so you don't wanna make choices necessarily, or critical ... Like, I think a lot of people are making ... We're, we're seeing it now, people have been making, you know, staffing choices based on thinking that AI will be in a certain place, and then going back and, you know, a lot of AI [00:50:00] pilots are failing, and that's okay.

Daniel Crook: That's part of it. You know, so we have to stay ... We just, if we stay grounded and we know that that's the case, we, if we know that most of these ... You know, I, I love what we did, Dr. Conner. I think staying, we've been very AI sober in our work, which in, in our first year of doing our work, we level set with leaders and said, "Hey, this is the experimental group."

Daniel Crook: Like, we didn't over-prompt. We said, "Here is what we are trying to accomplish together as a team." We weren't, "Here's your software. Drop it off on their doorstep and walk away." It was leader ... And, and I think, like, as a vendor, us doing this, being that partner and saying, "We're, you know, we're developing this, this AI platform for then you to give us this feedback, for you to use and teach, for us to learn with you," I think staying grounded can create a lot of va- Like, we don't have to be in the, in, in, you know, the Star Wars universe [00:51:00] to do something futuristic.

Daniel Crook: You can ... That's human cen- It's, it is human-centric to, to say we are going to both use AI, but also create a human g- human-based community of, of excellent leaders to explore it. And so I think keeping, keeping your implementation, like, rooted in the reality of what the tool can do now, and not trying to over-predict where it will be, but rolling with the availability.

Daniel Crook: Netflix did that. They, they, they set ... They did the DVDs, and as the technology changed, they adapted to it and built their business that way. And, you know, before they knew it, they're, you know, the biggest name out there. And so I think, like, l- l- as leaders of site-based leaders, district-based leaders, you know, ed tech providers, I, w- you know, we're all in on

Daniel Crook: We're all doing the same ... We all have the same mission, which is to improve operational efficiency so that ... U- and, and to improve learning [00:52:00] outcomes so we can have better schools and better outcomes for learners. We're all on this same team, and so I think, like, operating from a grounded, you know, community-based approach for adopting technology and, and not jumping the gun on

Daniel Crook: You know, I think a lot of people gravitate, gravitate to wanting to be the most futuristic, and I actually think that that's- kind of the antithesis of being truly futuristic, which is taking a step back, working with the people around you, and staying, like, rooted in the reality of our moment, which is that AI isn't capable of doing most things well enough to put in front of students And that we, that AI is very good at helping us put things in front of students more ef- more effectively with the same level of fidelity or more faster, but in a human-centric approach, not [00:53:00] a completely...

Daniel Crook: We're not there yet. We might be, but we're not there yet. And so I think understanding that and then taking that approach. 

Michael Conner: I love that, Daniel. Specifically what you stated at the outset, AI sobriety, right? And we absolutely did that approach. I thought it was very intentional via the experimental group, you know, with the Agile platform.

Michael Conner: But what I love the example that you provided with Nex- Netflix, because as you were s- talking about Netflix, right, and basically how they shifted their operating model, um, it went back, I, I, I g- I go back to one of my professors that I had. Uh, shout out to Professor Michael Tushman. Uh, he wrote the book Lead and Disrupt, and he talks about exploitation and exploration.

Michael Conner: It's kind of like it was his theory that we have to be able to exploit specific elements and dimensions with, and let's just say [00:54:00] that right now within our business model, and we have to continuously explore for what that next level of innovation, but with a level of sobriety, right? And everybody used the example with that, within that process.

Michael Conner: And again, Daniel, one thing I will always remember, right, and this was when we started our journey with the Agile platform. He said, you said, g- continue to, or, or always look at this from an MVP state, and we're gonna be in this continuous NV- MVP state, you know, with regards to our platform, really emulates the process that Netflix took from its evolution to now with that.

Michael Conner: But again, Daniel, you have some of the best analogies across this country, and I'm gonna nominate you to be the educator analogy of the year for that. But Daniel, last question, and I don't know if I can do this because I've known you for three years, know you very [00:55:00] well, and to limit you to three words is gonna be very, very hard.

Michael Conner: And I think there's on- probably, you know, one other person in your life that can limit you to three words. And yes, it is my great friend, Daniel's wife, Letty. But Daniel, what three words do you want today's audience to leave our podcast with regarding ed tech companies and school leaders collaborating intentionally, keyword intentionally, to build school and data infrastructures so that learning organiz- organizations are AC 2035

Michael Conner: ready? 

Daniel Crook: I mean, these are like, so I'm gonna say three words, just like word, word, word. 

Michael Conner: To my audience, yes, that's a technical Daniel's, uh, mind is. He has three words, Daniel. 

Daniel Crook: All right. Well, we said it eight times or more, more now, so let's, let's definitely say interoperability. Let's use the word... Can I use like a co- like a [00:56:00] foundational infrastructure/data warehouse?

Daniel Crook: Am I, am I stre- am I- 

Michael Conner: Foundational in- 

Daniel Crook: Am I pushing the limit, you know, data warehouse? Maybe I'll just say that. 

Michael Conner: Okay. Data warehouse, yep. 

Daniel Crook: And don't forget to listen to John Cage's 4'33". So I'll say John Cage. 

Michael Conner: John Cage. And I'm gonna check that out, Daniel, because that is absolutely phenomenal. And I'm gonna- Sure

Michael Conner: actually, I might, I might even have this as one of my exercises within my micro-credential program or my doctoral class. But interoperability, data warehouse, and John Cage, 4'33". Mr. Daniel Crook, thank you for coming on VFE. You've lasted, my good brother. Now Daniel, if anybody wants to get in touch with you, wanna learn more about School Harbor, the work that's being underpinned at School Harbor, if I'm a early tech founder or CEO that's starting [00:57:00] a startup, how would I be able to get in contact with you?

Daniel Crook: Yeah, just find us, just, just put School Harbor into Google. You know, I'm on LinkedIn, so I'm, I'm always happy to take a call anytime, you know? So if there's ever anything I can ever be helpful with, always happy to have a conversation. So yeah, find us at schoolharbor.com. Um, reach out to me on LinkedIn.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. Thank you, Daniel. And again, a lot of my audience, they do reach out, so expect some emails, expect some calls or inquiries to School Harbor. But again, Daniel, A, I wanna thank you for coming on VFE, but also, B, for being such a strategic partner, for being such a good co-founder and partner to me as we continue to try to change the landscape of education.

Michael Conner: And again, to my audience, please reach out to Daniel. Uh, please reach out to School Harbor. School Harbor's, like I said, and I'm saying this objectively and subjectively, one of the best in the country. So [00:58:00] Daniel Crook, you made it through, my friend. Thank you. 

Daniel Crook: Yeah, and thank you. And, and right back at ya when it comes to the partnership.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. And on that note, onward and upward, everybody. Have a great evening.